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	<title>Comments on: The Other Side of That Coin</title>
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	<description>~ videamus quid sit exilium. nempe loci commutatio.~</description>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://aagblog.com/2009/12/07/other-side-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-21110</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 02:44:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aagblog.com/?p=7236#comment-21110</guid>
		<description>I travel in the kid-with-cancer circle, so I&#039;m no stranger to unanswered prayers. What I&#039;ve seen of the Christian crowd (of which I&#039;m not one) is that the prayers are expected to help, but often don&#039;t. It&#039;s just that whenever someone who was prayed for recovers, the prayers are deemed to be what did the trick. 

Whenever someone has a good medical outcome and the person who I&#039;m talking to says, &quot;Thank God,&quot; I am quick to reply with &quot;Thank the doctors.&quot; The person usually acknowledges that perhaps the doctors had a tiny bit to do with it. 

Chemotherapy has saved more cancer kids than all the prayers in the world. You can&#039;t prove that the prayers didn&#039;t help; there&#039;s just this niggling little fact that prayers by themselves have a 0% cure rate, but prayers combined with chemotherapy have an 80% cure rate.

My wife was very mad at God that our kid got sick, but I didn&#039;t have that feeling at all. I have the serenity that comes with a lack of blame.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I travel in the kid-with-cancer circle, so I&#8217;m no stranger to unanswered prayers. What I&#8217;ve seen of the Christian crowd (of which I&#8217;m not one) is that the prayers are expected to help, but often don&#8217;t. It&#8217;s just that whenever someone who was prayed for recovers, the prayers are deemed to be what did the trick. </p>
<p>Whenever someone has a good medical outcome and the person who I&#8217;m talking to says, &#8220;Thank God,&#8221; I am quick to reply with &#8220;Thank the doctors.&#8221; The person usually acknowledges that perhaps the doctors had a tiny bit to do with it. </p>
<p>Chemotherapy has saved more cancer kids than all the prayers in the world. You can&#8217;t prove that the prayers didn&#8217;t help; there&#8217;s just this niggling little fact that prayers by themselves have a 0% cure rate, but prayers combined with chemotherapy have an 80% cure rate.</p>
<p>My wife was very mad at God that our kid got sick, but I didn&#8217;t have that feeling at all. I have the serenity that comes with a lack of blame.</p>
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		<title>By: Molly Ren</title>
		<link>http://aagblog.com/2009/12/07/other-side-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-21078</link>
		<dc:creator>Molly Ren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 01:58:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aagblog.com/?p=7236#comment-21078</guid>
		<description>&quot;Finally I was able to check the sobs that had kept me company since I left the funeral. Maybe I should have stayed in church all these years, I thought, wiping the tears off my face, for surely those people had figured out long before I did that God does not answer prayer. They’d figured it out — and still they believed. They’d figured it out — and still they talked to God.&quot;

Though what I personally believe can be summed up by a big question mark right now, I&#039;ve always been curious about &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Deism&lt;/a&gt;. It was described to me in school as casting God as a kind of watchmaker, who created the world and set it going, but didn&#039;t take a hand in it after that. It&#039;s kind of amazing that for a while there was a whole school of thought for people that didn&#039;t believe in miracles, but still believed in God... Thomas Jefferson was rumored to be one, and he was an amazingly smart man. Though I&#039;m not an expert, I think reading about it gave me the impression that God was allowing people to &quot;grow up&quot; and be independent of him, though that&#039;s not as comforting as it could be. 

I actually go to Twitter when I think most people would be praying, or to the phone to call my mom or a girlfriend. They don&#039;t always help, but I feel a release from simply talking about my problems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Finally I was able to check the sobs that had kept me company since I left the funeral. Maybe I should have stayed in church all these years, I thought, wiping the tears off my face, for surely those people had figured out long before I did that God does not answer prayer. They’d figured it out — and still they believed. They’d figured it out — and still they talked to God.&#8221;</p>
<p>Though what I personally believe can be summed up by a big question mark right now, I&#8217;ve always been curious about <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism" rel="nofollow">Deism</a>. It was described to me in school as casting God as a kind of watchmaker, who created the world and set it going, but didn&#8217;t take a hand in it after that. It&#8217;s kind of amazing that for a while there was a whole school of thought for people that didn&#8217;t believe in miracles, but still believed in God&#8230; Thomas Jefferson was rumored to be one, and he was an amazingly smart man. Though I&#8217;m not an expert, I think reading about it gave me the impression that God was allowing people to &#8220;grow up&#8221; and be independent of him, though that&#8217;s not as comforting as it could be. </p>
<p>I actually go to Twitter when I think most people would be praying, or to the phone to call my mom or a girlfriend. They don&#8217;t always help, but I feel a release from simply talking about my problems.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://aagblog.com/2009/12/07/other-side-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-21077</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 17:00:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aagblog.com/?p=7236#comment-21077</guid>
		<description>Regarding compartments, it also occurs to me that this is also why conservatives with gay relatives (Cheney - daughter, Gingrich - sister) can move so easily in homophobic circles and support anti-gay legislation.  
I have argued with conservatives, getting their agreement that every single underlying arguement to their conclusion was wrong, only to have them repeat their conclusion as fact.  The underlying arguments are in separate compartments from the conclusion, and their destruction has no impact on the validity of the conclusion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding compartments, it also occurs to me that this is also why conservatives with gay relatives (Cheney &#8211; daughter, Gingrich &#8211; sister) can move so easily in homophobic circles and support anti-gay legislation.<br />
I have argued with conservatives, getting their agreement that every single underlying arguement to their conclusion was wrong, only to have them repeat their conclusion as fact.  The underlying arguments are in separate compartments from the conclusion, and their destruction has no impact on the validity of the conclusion.</p>
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		<title>By: Truly</title>
		<link>http://aagblog.com/2009/12/07/other-side-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-21076</link>
		<dc:creator>Truly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 16:58:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aagblog.com/?p=7236#comment-21076</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not a believer, or a non-believer...and still I find myself praying at times. I&#039;m not sure why; maybe it&#039;s just one of those threads woven into my fabric at a young age. When I do pray though, it&#039;s not with the expectation of results—it&#039;s more with the vague intention of putting my good wishes out there into the world somehow. And (as trite and silly as this seems) I always remember a line Morgan Freeman spoke in the trashy movie Deep Impact: &quot;God hears all prayers. But sometimes, the answer is &#039;no&#039;.&quot;

I think that age-old question, &quot;Why do bad things happen to good people&quot; (and vice versa, of course), is one thing that makes faith very, very difficult. I can&#039;t offer any answer for that one.

Finding beauty in the absurd, in the illogical, in the asymmetrical, in the difficult, in the ugly...well, that&#039;s a kind of art, right? I suppose that&#039;s my religion, my faith.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not a believer, or a non-believer&#8230;and still I find myself praying at times. I&#8217;m not sure why; maybe it&#8217;s just one of those threads woven into my fabric at a young age. When I do pray though, it&#8217;s not with the expectation of results—it&#8217;s more with the vague intention of putting my good wishes out there into the world somehow. And (as trite and silly as this seems) I always remember a line Morgan Freeman spoke in the trashy movie Deep Impact: &#8220;God hears all prayers. But sometimes, the answer is &#8216;no&#8217;.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think that age-old question, &#8220;Why do bad things happen to good people&#8221; (and vice versa, of course), is one thing that makes faith very, very difficult. I can&#8217;t offer any answer for that one.</p>
<p>Finding beauty in the absurd, in the illogical, in the asymmetrical, in the difficult, in the ugly&#8230;well, that&#8217;s a kind of art, right? I suppose that&#8217;s my religion, my faith.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://aagblog.com/2009/12/07/other-side-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-21075</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 16:56:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aagblog.com/?p=7236#comment-21075</guid>
		<description>First, I notice that conservatives seem to have highly compartmentalized minds.  Thus, injunctions to pray are not compared to results. They are two separate issues. 

My father, a minister, had polio.  One of the books in his library was titled &quot;And God Said No.&quot;  It was by the parent of a young girl who was severely crippled by polio (worse than my father, who could walk in a Frankentstein way).  It concerned their reaction, including intense prayer, followed by the realization that God does answer prayer, but sometimes by denying the petition.  THey then went on to consider that God had His reasons, one of which was to teach them to appreciate what they had rather than bemoan what they lacked.  Very Job-ish.  
What makes current conservative Christianity imprenetrable to me is the insistence that God always says yes (Ask and it shall be given) while ignoring the many instances when this is just not so.
Againk, I blame this on the compartmentalization of the conservative mind.  Lying is wrong: No Judge, we of the schoolbaord did not back Intelligent Design for religious reasons.  We want to save medical costs by limiting prescriptions to three drugs (Texas); Many diseasses, including mental illnesses require multiple drugs and result in high hospitalization costs of the three drug limit is maintained; no we can&#039;t touch the three drug limit because four drugs cost more money.
Sarah Palin undoubtedly views herself as a good Christian woman, despite ample evidence that she has violated one of the Ten Commandments (Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor) repeatedly.  These are separate compartments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, I notice that conservatives seem to have highly compartmentalized minds.  Thus, injunctions to pray are not compared to results. They are two separate issues. </p>
<p>My father, a minister, had polio.  One of the books in his library was titled &#8220;And God Said No.&#8221;  It was by the parent of a young girl who was severely crippled by polio (worse than my father, who could walk in a Frankentstein way).  It concerned their reaction, including intense prayer, followed by the realization that God does answer prayer, but sometimes by denying the petition.  THey then went on to consider that God had His reasons, one of which was to teach them to appreciate what they had rather than bemoan what they lacked.  Very Job-ish.<br />
What makes current conservative Christianity imprenetrable to me is the insistence that God always says yes (Ask and it shall be given) while ignoring the many instances when this is just not so.<br />
Againk, I blame this on the compartmentalization of the conservative mind.  Lying is wrong: No Judge, we of the schoolbaord did not back Intelligent Design for religious reasons.  We want to save medical costs by limiting prescriptions to three drugs (Texas); Many diseasses, including mental illnesses require multiple drugs and result in high hospitalization costs of the three drug limit is maintained; no we can&#8217;t touch the three drug limit because four drugs cost more money.<br />
Sarah Palin undoubtedly views herself as a good Christian woman, despite ample evidence that she has violated one of the Ten Commandments (Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor) repeatedly.  These are separate compartments.</p>
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		<title>By: The Friend Around the Corner</title>
		<link>http://aagblog.com/2009/12/07/other-side-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-21074</link>
		<dc:creator>The Friend Around the Corner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 15:00:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aagblog.com/?p=7236#comment-21074</guid>
		<description>@Thomas:  Thanks to you and everyone over there.  We have an awesome country here where we can HAVE this conversation about prayer and belief without fear of reprisal because of that Constitution and those who defend it. Come home safe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Thomas:  Thanks to you and everyone over there.  We have an awesome country here where we can HAVE this conversation about prayer and belief without fear of reprisal because of that Constitution and those who defend it. Come home safe.</p>
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		<title>By: Finn</title>
		<link>http://aagblog.com/2009/12/07/other-side-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-21073</link>
		<dc:creator>Finn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 14:57:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aagblog.com/?p=7236#comment-21073</guid>
		<description>There have been studies that suggest that prayer can, in fact, have a positive impact on the sick. I think it could be true and have a couple ideas how that could be: 1. We are energy, energy surrounds us. Group prayer directs the energies of many people to one. 2. The sick person, aware of the positive energy being directed at him/her, creates their own positive energy which cause the body to fight more effectively.

Why it doesn&#039;t always work, I don&#039;t know. Why children have to get sick and die, I don&#039;t know. Why horrid, awful people live long lives, I don&#039;t know. I&#039;ve stopped asking these questions and have come to accept that things happen that just don&#039;t make sense and perhaps at some point they will. Or they won&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There have been studies that suggest that prayer can, in fact, have a positive impact on the sick. I think it could be true and have a couple ideas how that could be: 1. We are energy, energy surrounds us. Group prayer directs the energies of many people to one. 2. The sick person, aware of the positive energy being directed at him/her, creates their own positive energy which cause the body to fight more effectively.</p>
<p>Why it doesn&#8217;t always work, I don&#8217;t know. Why children have to get sick and die, I don&#8217;t know. Why horrid, awful people live long lives, I don&#8217;t know. I&#8217;ve stopped asking these questions and have come to accept that things happen that just don&#8217;t make sense and perhaps at some point they will. Or they won&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://aagblog.com/2009/12/07/other-side-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-21072</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 10:01:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aagblog.com/?p=7236#comment-21072</guid>
		<description>There is a path of idea that God lets us endure great suffering so we can better recognize and enjoy the true joys of this world.  I don&#039;t know if I believe it.

But I do know this: When I get home from Iraq this time like all the others I will have such a greater appreciation of my family, and the peace and security we enjoy that allows me to utilize the freedoms protected by our Constitution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a path of idea that God lets us endure great suffering so we can better recognize and enjoy the true joys of this world.  I don&#8217;t know if I believe it.</p>
<p>But I do know this: When I get home from Iraq this time like all the others I will have such a greater appreciation of my family, and the peace and security we enjoy that allows me to utilize the freedoms protected by our Constitution.</p>
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		<title>By: randy</title>
		<link>http://aagblog.com/2009/12/07/other-side-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-21071</link>
		<dc:creator>randy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 07:30:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aagblog.com/?p=7236#comment-21071</guid>
		<description>First, I don&#039;t have the belief in God gene, so those who wish to discount what I say should feel free.  

But prayer isn&#039;t for other people, prayer is for self.  Or to put it another way, when people pray for others, they are helping themselves feel connected to &quot;a greater purpose&quot;, IE, community.  Remember the study that revealed Franciscan nuns deep in prayer, Buddhist monks in meditation and people under hypnosis had all achieved the identical state?  

So prayer does accomplish things, just not what people might expect of it?  Perhaps instead of wondering why appeals to God may or may not be effectual, why not pray for the ability to come to terms with such losses instead?  Pray for the support of community to ease the suffering of those who remain?  Pray for strength to endure despite such travesties?  

Appealing to God is likely to just leave you frustrated.  The first option may be enlightening and speed the process of grief.  The second option might encourage turning to community and aiding others, which has been shown to be the fastest remedy and induce the greatest happiness.  The strength option might increase your ability to function despite such situations and manage better the next time.

On another subject, I find the loss of someone young or infant to be the least tragic.  At least they leave behind fewer heartbroken loved ones.  I&#039;ve had half a dozen of those in my life.  The greatest negative impact seems to come from the loss of a parent--which I have yet to experience directly.  That is horrendous to spouses and children and friends and relations and communities.  In the middle comes the elderly, who often have already lost many of their friends/peers/spouses/parents.  

If only we didn&#039;t torture their end of life and provided better options like we do animals.  Why do we treat our pets better than our venerated ones?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, I don&#8217;t have the belief in God gene, so those who wish to discount what I say should feel free.  </p>
<p>But prayer isn&#8217;t for other people, prayer is for self.  Or to put it another way, when people pray for others, they are helping themselves feel connected to &#8220;a greater purpose&#8221;, IE, community.  Remember the study that revealed Franciscan nuns deep in prayer, Buddhist monks in meditation and people under hypnosis had all achieved the identical state?  </p>
<p>So prayer does accomplish things, just not what people might expect of it?  Perhaps instead of wondering why appeals to God may or may not be effectual, why not pray for the ability to come to terms with such losses instead?  Pray for the support of community to ease the suffering of those who remain?  Pray for strength to endure despite such travesties?  </p>
<p>Appealing to God is likely to just leave you frustrated.  The first option may be enlightening and speed the process of grief.  The second option might encourage turning to community and aiding others, which has been shown to be the fastest remedy and induce the greatest happiness.  The strength option might increase your ability to function despite such situations and manage better the next time.</p>
<p>On another subject, I find the loss of someone young or infant to be the least tragic.  At least they leave behind fewer heartbroken loved ones.  I&#8217;ve had half a dozen of those in my life.  The greatest negative impact seems to come from the loss of a parent&#8211;which I have yet to experience directly.  That is horrendous to spouses and children and friends and relations and communities.  In the middle comes the elderly, who often have already lost many of their friends/peers/spouses/parents.  </p>
<p>If only we didn&#8217;t torture their end of life and provided better options like we do animals.  Why do we treat our pets better than our venerated ones?</p>
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		<title>By: mer</title>
		<link>http://aagblog.com/2009/12/07/other-side-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-21070</link>
		<dc:creator>mer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 07:20:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aagblog.com/?p=7236#comment-21070</guid>
		<description>Sometimes I think that to pray is to fervently hope for something, and to hope  is to doubt. So, I am not too sure how well prayer works if doubt is its foundation. I have no idea wether being a Christian or religious person has anything to do with the life and death that a person is given, or that life and death are better because of faith. 
What I do believe is that we are put on this earth to learn. We are not here to blindly follow without understanding or because of fear. I think if humanity is kept in a persons heart than they&#039;d see that there is very little that separates us- and though prayer is comforting it does not put you above anyone else. Our lives and our deaths teach us and those around us and I think that&#039;s what/who God is. God is the force in the world that is constantly pushing us to grow and to understand. It is up to us to meet that challenge and not stand judging others with righteous indignation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sometimes I think that to pray is to fervently hope for something, and to hope  is to doubt. So, I am not too sure how well prayer works if doubt is its foundation. I have no idea wether being a Christian or religious person has anything to do with the life and death that a person is given, or that life and death are better because of faith.<br />
What I do believe is that we are put on this earth to learn. We are not here to blindly follow without understanding or because of fear. I think if humanity is kept in a persons heart than they&#8217;d see that there is very little that separates us- and though prayer is comforting it does not put you above anyone else. Our lives and our deaths teach us and those around us and I think that&#8217;s what/who God is. God is the force in the world that is constantly pushing us to grow and to understand. It is up to us to meet that challenge and not stand judging others with righteous indignation.</p>
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