So ardently did I believe my family to be complete after my two girls arrived that I did not consider the question of circumcision. I did not consider the question of circumcision even when my daughter’s birth mother later delivered a boy. That boy was not mine to raise, I thought then, so what did my personal snipping opinions matter?
But within weeks he was coming to live with me. “Make sure to get him circumcised,” his mother told me on the way out the door. “The hospital never got around to it when he was born, so you have to take him in soon.” The vehemence of my unspoken response startled me. There is no way in hell I’m taking this baby in for an unnecessary procedure, I thought to myself. If you want him to be cut then you can comfort him during and after the procedure.
Nevertheless, I asked his new doctor about it the first time she met the boy. She flipped through my hastily-gathered pile of paperwork. “He’s only three days shy of a month. I don’t perform circumcisions, and you’re going to have a hard time finding any other doctor willing to do one on a baby this age. Before one month they use no anesthetic, but he’s to the point that they’d have trouble keeping him still during the procedure.”
My stomach went queasy. “Then can we schedule it after he’s a month old, when he can have anesthetic?”
She shook her head. “I wouldn’t recommend it. There’s no medical reason to circumcise him at this point, so why subject him to anesthetic he doesn’t need?”
As time has passed I’ve grown more and more comfortable with the idea that the boy should make up his own mind about circumcision. When he gets to be a teenager — ideally, before he’s sexually active — he can find out what current medical research says about the role of the foreskin in pleasure and disease transmission. With his father’s and my guidance he can decide for himself how to approach the risks and benefits of circumcision, and if he wants to pursue the operation we’ll gladly help him set it up and pay for it.
With that thought in mind, I’m bothered to read that CDC is considering recommending routine infant circumcision based on studies done in Africa which show that circumcision reduces the infection risk by half for heterosexual men who have sex with HIV positive women. I question many things about the applicability of this study but nothing more so than that the potential recommendation targets infants.
Parents of course have the right (within legal limits) to raise their children as they see fit. But for the life of me I can find no logical reason why circumcision should be recommended for day-old babies who are many years away from engaging in the types of behaviors which would put them at risk for HIV and other infections.
“But it also lowers the risk of penile cancer!” people like to mention when the topic of circumcision comes up, but the fact is that this type of cancer is extraordinarily rare in the US. Only 0.2% of cancers in men and 0.1% of cancer deaths in men in the United States are from penile cancer. Contrast this with the fact that 16% of US men will face prostate cancer in their lifetimes — and yet we do not remove the prostate at birth. Or the fact that 12% of US women will develop breast cancer in their lifetimes — and yet we do not remove breast tissue at birth.
“Of course we shouldn’t remove the prostate or the breasts at birth!” you must be thinking. “Why permanently alter someone who hasn’t consented to it for theoretical protection against diseases they don’t have and might never get?
And that is exactly my point.
I’ll be interested to see what the CDC says in their recommendations due out by the end of the year. If they do find reason to recommend circumcision as a way to lower HIV infection risk, I’d like some justification for why it should be done to infants instead of to those who are nearing sexual maturity.
Thoughts? Opinions? I’d particularly like to hear from men. If you knew circumcision was likely to reduce risk, would you want to be circumcised yourself? Would you have it done to an infant son? Or would you wait to see what research said when he was older?
Sound off below.
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Oh dear. Hang onto your hat, hon. This post may result in quite a storm…
Good lord. You cannot possibly have been this starved for entertainment on a sunday night.
If you are very very lucky, the comment thread here will merely be lengthy.
Exsqueeze me?
!!!!!!!
My partner circumcised his oldest son, 13 years ago. His boy with me, who is now 3, he did not want circumcised. Not that I would have allowed it anyway. But after educating him about the factual risks, both short and long term, and supposed benefits, he not only didn’t want his son circumcised, but wished he had not been either. He has numerous issues that are directly linked to his circumcision.
While I believe that there is no place for circumcision at all – if it is recommended, I too wonder why it is recommended for infants. Why can’t the decision be left until the child is old enough to make this decision on their own – for their own body – after they have been able to educate themselves?
Grr.
peace…
Genital mutilation? Not my son. There is no sound, valid, rational excuse for subjecting an infant boy to this assault. And imo it should be illegal.
I am very interested to see what people write here. The part most of these pro-circumcision studies overlook is that with adequate washing of the penis, most of the infection risk in uncircumcised boys disappears. However, I know many uncircumcised men who say that women in the U.S. do not look favorably upon uncircumcised penises. But that it is not a good reason to circumcise your child. And some studies have shown that uncircumcised men have more sensitivity at the head of their penis than circumcised men. Lastly, there are far more uncircumcised men around the world than circumcised… and they seem to be doing just fine!
My SO is not from the US and is uncircumcised. His penis is different than other men I’ve been with and the first time we were together it was a bit of a surprise. It’s not what women in the US expect, though, and I don’t think I’d even seen pictures of an uncircumcised penis before him.
I didn’t have a strong opinion before meeting him and always said I’d leave the decision to the father. Since then, I have a much stronger opinion and think circumcision should not be done. There are cases where it’s medically indicated and I’m still a little unsure what I think about circumcision as a religious practice. I don’t like it, I don’t think it should be done, but it is something deeply meaningful to those religions that I don’t know if I should feel it’s wrong. That sounds weird, but it’s a strange headspace.
Anyway, I’m here to say that some of us american women are more than OK with an uncircumcised penis.
According to wikipedia and other sources the primary reason for circumcision seems to be christianity and it’s view on masturbation.
“In the late nineteenth century, doctors advocated circumcision to prevent masturbation, which was then considered sinful and harmful.[citation needed] Dr. John Harvey Kellogg recommended circumcision of boys, writing: “A remedy for masturbation which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision…. The operation should be performed by a surgeon without administering anaesthetic, as the pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment.”[32] As late as 1936, L. E. Holt, an author of pediatric textbooks, advocated male and female circumcision as a treatment for masturbation.”
Although I cannot verify that it does seem likely.
Here in greece nobody gets circumcised apart from the occasional jew and I would never consider doing that to my son. I believe that nature (or god for those that believe in him) put foreskin there for a reason and we’d better leave it there.
I’ve heard circumcision advocates claim that it’s healthier cause you don’t have to worry about smegma but c’mon if you bathe every day and you take care to wash your cock (and your son’s cock if his to young to do it himself) then smegma accumulation is a non-issue.
If you REALLY want to circumcise your son though then I think that infant age seems better suited cause the boy won’t be able to touch his cock and mess with the wound (not to mention viewing porn)
Once the boy is older than that though then it’s better to wait until he’s grown enough to make up his own mind.
This turned out to be rather more lengthy than I intended so I’ll stop here with one last thing.
MY COCK WILL NEVER BE IN THE SAME ROOM WITH A KNIFE! :-)
I wish I was not circumcised. As I get older, I want my foreskin back (I am fifty). I had my son circumcised w/o even thinking about it. I apologize to him.
A voice from a different culture perhaps? I’m from Sweden and, as in most parts of Europe, nobody is circumcised, if they’re not jewish or muslim. I don’t think men get more infections here than in the US. My boyfriend always wonders if circumsision wouldn’t leave the exposed skin very dry and unprotected, but maybe not. Just saying, it’s not something you do everywhere.
Here in the UK circumcision is the exception rather than the norm. I think culturally in the US it is bound up with religious rather than medical issues. I am with the others here – the foreskin is there for a reason. If mine had been removed as a child I would be upset. Let the boy choose for himself.
I am very firmly against routine circumcision of children. I recently expressed this opinion to someone, and was told that I have no right to an opinion on this, or any other issue affecting children, because I haven’t pushed one out of my vagina.
Luckily though, where I live opinion counts for very little; circumcision is no longer performed on children in public hospitals here without medical reason.
I’m against it because it’s an issue of consent, and because I’ve met enough men who’ve had problems with circs gone wrong. But also because of this.
One time, I kept the lights off when I slept with a man for the first time. As I closed my hand around his cock, I noticed it was a really strange shape. I though “my God, he’s deformed! What do I do? Okay, okay, I can handle this. I really like him…. Okay. I’m not going to let this bother me… keep going. It’s okay”. And, gradually, through all these panicked and worried thoughts, a small but insistent voice in my head struggled to be heard. Gradually it dawned on me.
He wasn’t deformed. He was uncircumcised.
This really shocked me. I’d been around, I’d seen a cock or two, both in the flesh and in the media. It was immediately clear to me that if I thought one in its natural state was deformed, there was something really wrong in my culture. And when I asked people why they had circumcised their sons, the answer was usually, “I dunno, it’s just what you did” or “because his dad had been done”.
I don’t think these are good enough reasons for removing part of a child’s body without his consent. And I think the issues of hygiene, STD prevention and tight foreskins could be better addressed other ways, particularly in our countries.
I am not a supporter of male circumcision at all, and will never encourage it for anybody. It’s his body, let it be his choice. Very few websites talk about the side effects of circumcision, but there are many, and they affect 10% of all circumcised men. Please read up on the side effects before you make any decisions.
This website has very very good information against male circumcision.
( http://www.webmagician.com/pubservice/index.shtml )
Also
http://jta.org/news/article/2007/09/20/104271/germanbris
http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSN0345545120071204
http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics%3b103/3/686
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/circumcision.html
My son is not circumcised, and it’s a decision I will never, ever regret. Mypartner had stronger views on it than I, but I’ve come to really see her POV on it. The minimal gains are not worth lopping bits off people, especially since the benefit vanishes entirely with, y’know, proper contraception.
It boggles my mind that this is being considered. It boggles my mind more that people are willing to do this. There is no benefit to doing it young rather than when they are of an age to decide for themselves, other than it saves ‘uncomfortable’ talks about hard topics like sex.
I’m trans, and as a kid, I was cut. I never really thought about it until I was older, it didn’t make a difference, but if I could have chosen I would have gone with ‘not’. I just don’t see any valid reason to do this to babies.
I think that routine circumcision should be outlawed except for religious or clearcut medical reasons. When my son was born, I was adamant that he not be cut. I had read too many horror stories to allow it. In addition, I saw no need to enrich the OB by $400 to do it (guess who was pushing it the hardest?). Also, I have never understood why, when women are circumcised, its genital mutilation but, for boys in the US anyway, its commonplace and people are criticized for not having it done. Like some other guys here, I am cut and have had some problems due to that. If my son chooses to have it done when he is of age, thats his choice…I refuse to make it for him.
I was circumcised as a baby. I’m content with my lot (can’t restore something that was removed) but I do sometimes wonder what it’s like for those who aren’t circumcised.
I will not be having kids of my own, but if I were to do so, I wouldn’t have them circumcised. That’s a decision that should be left up to the individual when they’re old enough to decide, as far as I’m concerned. I think it’s unfair to just decide it arbitrarily for the kid.
– PB
http://insatiabear.blogspot.com
Yeah.. bascially what’s written above.. even though Parents do the best they can.. when it’s all said and done it’s the child’s body to live in. Why preform an unecessary proceedure when soap, condoms and diet can prevent what issues may arise..
Let’s start by noting that there has been no health risks associated with circumcision. The risks are all with the uncircumcized–penile cancer (low risk, granted), cervical cancer for sex partners, HIV (lots of data there now), and HPV infection. The risk for HIV transmission with not being circumcized is real and relatively high. In studies in Africa, circumcision cut HIV transmission by 2/3s. So, there are potentially big health consequences to your decision. Those are facts, and they are not (or shouldn’t be) in dispute.
With regard to letting a 13 year old make that decision? You have got to be kidding. The only decision a 13 year old guy can make is how much he wants to get into the pants of the nearest 13 year old girl. Age him 3-4 years, and his big decision is how fast can he drive his car in an effort to get into the pants of the 16 year old girl in the passenger seat. Otherwise, expecting him to decide whether to get circumcized or not when he’s a teen is extremely naive. Which is the reason it’s performed during infancy. In the US, 79% of men are circumcized. It’s not the rarity it used to be. That said, if one waits until the child is mature enough to make the decision to circumsize, chances are the procedure will be performed without much benefit–kind of like vaccinating a 25 year old woman with the HPV vaccine. In theory, great, and in practice, of little consequence.
“Let’s start by noting that there has been no health risks associated with circumcision.”
According to who? Even just reading the small sample of comments here you can say there’s enough anecdotal evidence to say there health risks associated with circumcision later in life. If you read any of the links in Jelly’s comments you’ll see the side effects of Male circumcision.
Not a single medical procedure is without its risks, including circumcision.
John, I’m a little confused. When you say a teenage boy doesn’t have the maturity to decide whether or not to get circumcised, are you worried that he will choose to do it, or not do it?
Because if he says no to circumcision, he can change his mind later. This does not present any problems which I can see. If he says yes to circumcision, he can’t change his mind later. I can see the problem here. Except your conclusion is that boys should be circumcised as babies to avoid bad decisions being made by teenagers.
Care to clarify?
Sure. Teen age boys are notoriously poor assessors of risk. How many boys have their first sex without condoms or any other form of birth control because “it’s only my first time”. As though that’s a relevant piece of information? How many teen age boys try smoking a cigarette because “it’s adults who get lung cancer, not kids.” How many teen age boys speed at 80-90 mph because speed limits were designed by old adults whose “reflexes just aren’t so good anymore”. Think these aren’t for real answers? I can only conclude you haven’t been dealing with teen aged boys on a regular basis. I won’t get into the joys of teen aged girls and their “curious” reasoning processes. From a medical perspective, doing a circumcision on a pubertal or post-pubertal penis is much more involved, and the risks–bleeding and infection–are much greater. The benefits of circumcision are going to be much less too–since the older the individual, the greater the risk that he’s already infected someone or been infected with HPV. With regard to HIV (and those data are now pretty hard), the longer one waits to circumsize, the longer one is at risk of becoming infected with HIV.
With regard to the use of condoms, I can certainly tell the commentators are all adults. That’s why we have no teen pregnancies in the USA–teens always use condoms, right? That’s why we have no new HIV infections among teens–teens always use condoms. That’s why we have no chlamydia epidemic in the USA–teens always use condoms. Anyone want to tell me about how great teens are at managing money during freshman year at college–I’m sure the experiences reassure about how well teens make decisions. What about auto accident rates among teens? Sure, condoms are good–when and if they are used.
This is the real world, and condoms aren’t always used.
And as for the “pain” an infant experiences during circumcision, assuming they’re not more than a week or so in age, they really don’t feel pain–if they did, can you imagine the pain they would experience during childbirth, when bones (eg, skull) actually move? Maybe we should have all births be C-sections to spare the child that pain–if it indeed is pain.
Please don’t make this thread sound like a Kansas Board of Ed meeting on whether to teach evolution.
“Please don’t make this thread sound like a Kansas Board of Ed meeting on whether to teach evolution.”
Excuse me?
Thanks for clarifying what you were trying to say about teenage boys.
I disagree with you about how to combat teenage STD rates. If all boys were circumcised, there would still be some infections. And we would still need to find a way to try and prevent those – like, say, condoms. I prefer to start with the obvious – working out how to increase the use of condoms by teenagers.
I no longer deal with teenage boys on a regular basis, but I used to when I was a teenage girl. I had free, convenient and discreet access to condoms, provided by my father. I don’t recall ever hearing a teenage boy protesting about my insistence on condom use. But I distinctly remember conversations with four different teenage males who lamented having had their foreskin removed in childhood without their consent.
No risks? How about this. 10% of circumcised men/boys have meatal stenosis. As for all the risks you mention john, at the risk of repeating this again. Proper education will solve all the issues. I wonder what its like to have to say to your child when he’s 20. “I got you circumcised because I couldn’t be bothered to teach you how to wash and use condoms”. You’re living in a developed country for crying out loud, not a third world country where clean water is hard to come by, much less soap and condoms!
One advantage to not having him circumcized is he can never be mistaken as an Muslim terrorist.
I had my son circumcised as an infant, but I agonized long and hard about it. Yet I still feel like I probably shouldn’t have.
There is only two arguments for doing at that early age. They don’t remember it and cannot miss what they never had. What happens if you’re older and decide to do it and then regret it? If I were a man and not circumcised as an baby you’d have a hard time convincing me to go through with it.
Here in the UK, people don’t routinely circumcise their male children. I don’t think there is any study to show that UK males are more significantly at risk than US males in terms of catching diseases (i;d be interested to see if there was, but it still wouldn’t persuade me to do anything like that to him). Although, hopefully a few chats at the potential risks for both parties over not wearing condoms and normal hygiene, etc, will persuade my darling to keep himself clean & safe.
What I would say though, is what 13 year old boy in his right mind would be consenting to something like that!
Rosie
The rate of HPV infection is higher in the UK than the US, the rate of penile cancer is higher in the UK than the US, the rate of Kaposi’s sarcoma among UKers is greater among those having sex with Americans than among Americans doing so, and the risk of HIV is clearly associated with being uncircumcized.
Wasn’t the original anti-circumcision campaign was started by the British royal family in the late 1930s, during which it noted the Nazis had the right idea in not allowing boys to be circumcized?
As for British rates of condom use being particularly high–or high enough, if you prefer–I assure you that if the British had such knowledge as to how to assure teens were using condoms all the time, they’d be earning so much money as to cover the cost of all the bank bail-outs and then some. I don’t think that’s actually going to happen, though. I can only conclude Rosie, that your boy(s) haven’t yet crossed into their twenties yet.
Aaaaand we’ve fulfilled Godwin’s Law already. Yay us!
I was actually wondering when it was going to happen.
Didn’t take long, did it?
Actually it’s so rare to see Hitler invoked on this blog. I’m pretty sure that’s a good thing. :)
Given the tone of some of the comments, I’m beginning to wonder how much latent anti-semitism is present on this board. That there’s a lot in Europe is pretty well known, but in the USA, I’m a bit surprised.
Probably not much more for me to say on this one.
Oddly enough, we have a post today from The Kinky Jew that takes a look at the issue in a humorous light:
http://toywithme.com/articles/the-foreskin-makes-a-comeback/
“According to wikipedia and other sources the primary reason for circumcision seems to be christianity and it’s view on masturbation.”
I always thought of it as a Jewish ritual and cannot imagine why anyone other than a practicing Jew would want to circumcise their children. That said, I am circumcised, and it doesn’t bother me that my parents had that done to me when I was a baby.
You’re right I wasn’t specific enough. I was not talking about circumcision in general and how it came to be, but rather it’s wide spread use in the US. I don’t have any numbers in front of me but the only religions I know that perform circumcision are the Jews and the Muslims and surely they don’t represent 70% of the US!
What I suggested was that circumcision was simply the means to stop boys from masturbating cause they thought it was a sin. You see when you’re got no foreskin your hand comes in direct contact with the head and you need artificial lubrication but in it’s natural state it’s the foreskin than does that thing thus making masturbation much easier.
Odd. I am circumcised and masturbate all the time without lubricant. Lack of foreskin never got in my way, oh well!
Ah I see… apparently porn movies aren’t a very reliable information source! :-) Since I’ve never met a circumcised guy all I knew about what I said was from porn (and a few mainstream) movies where lubrication was always applied. Any other circumcised guys care to share their experiences ?
While I agree that porn movies are not a reliable information source, it’s also possible that my masturbation experiences differ greatly from other circumcised men. I’ve heard from some circumcised men that their frenulum is overly sensitive due to being exposed, but mine is not overly sensitive at all; I enjoy having it slapped, bitten, and so on.
The circumcision rate on new born boys in the US on non-jews and non-muslim is only 30%, and falling. Not 70%.
Strangely, I didn’t even think of this thread as one about Jewish circumcision. In Australia, where circumcision was common until recently but Jewish people are rare, any talk about routine circumcision is automatically a talk about secular routine circumcision.
The issue of whether particular religious/cultural groups should practice it is another conversation for us altogether.
I’m a big fan of personal, individual choice. Why do something permanent and irreversible when an individual can just have it done later if he deems it important?
I’ve been with circumcised and uncircumcised people and I definitely see the uncircumcised ones with more sensation.
Also, I don’t really need to point out that studies in Africa are not very relevant to the US. Cultural sexual differences are such that the kind of sex preferred in Africa (without a condom due to cost or preference, ‘dry’ or ‘high friction’ sex, intercrural intercourse) make the risk factors completely different from American risk factors.
We’d really need a multicultural longitudinal study of men in the US for good information.
I have come to the conclusion circumcision is mutilation. I wish I had not been, I wish I had not done it to my son. Think of all those nerve endings destroyed! As for hygiene, it has to be taught. Most mothers didn’t want to and most fathers never really thought about it, one way or another.
My younger brother was not circumcised but was not taught some things he needed to be told. He never stretched it so when he was about 13 he was so constricted it was done then. However, today I suspect a doctor could do something about the stretching.
So, don’t do it unless there is some clear medical reason to do so. I mean, we don’t remove a child’s appendix just because it might one day need to be done. Nature provides for a reason.
You compare circumcision with removing an appendix?! Wow.
As for the studies of HIV, they weren’t only in Africa, they were also in the US. And if you think that only studies done in the USA, UK, Asia, etc are only relevant to those populations, then I suggest you take a course in clinical research and epidemiology. (Please, Lilly2, take a course. The same argument you put forward was used by the tobacco companies for 4 decades to deny cigarette smoking as a cause of lung cancer.) The African studies alone were the basis for US policy, and the confirmations with US data have strengthened the basis for that policy. Reduction of HIV risk by 70 percent is nothing to dismiss, though it seems many on this board are prepared to do just that.
As for the sensation, Lilly2, how would someone be able to compare sensation between someone circumcized and someone not circumsized. It’s like asking who suffers more at someone’s death: parent, spouse, or child? Not sure there’s any way to look at that question meaningfully. And I don’t think there are that many nerves hooked up in the foreskin until age 6 months or so (again, a reason to do the procedure early in life). The nerves involved in sex are concentrated in the frenulum, and the frenulum isn’t touched during a circumcision–at least one performed by someone competent. So the basis for the comment on sensation isn’t particularly relevant. Sex is geared around the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems–and they’ve been shown to go to the frenulum. That’s the reason most guys are grateful for a partner who understands male anatomy during oral sex–it isn’t just the “old in-out in-out” (apologies to Stanley Kubrick).
The issue, I think, isn’t whether one should or shouldn’t circumcize but whether one makes that decision when the child is young or is older. The problems are two fold:
1. The older the individual when circumsized, the greater the risks of the surgery. When young, these risks are pretty minimal–not non-existant, but minimal. Not the case when a child is 13. Hence, letting the child make the decision is to de facto decide not to circumcize since the risks are so much greater and the benefits not well appreciated (if a teen) and the benefits reduced the older one is when it is performed. I suppose if one has committed to a single person, at that point the benefits should disappear completely, since there should be minimal chance of becoming HIV positive. However, mates do have affairs, so many one can make that argument.
2. Though there are alternative means of preventing the diseases impacted by circumcision, the reality is that teens aren’t too big on using those alternative means. Hence, absent circumcision, there’s not much one can do to prevent spread of these diseases. I’m not talking herpes, which won’t kill you, but HPV (leads to cervical cancer) and HIV (leads to AIDS) which can kill you. Chlamydia can/does leave women sterile and may cause some birth defects, but it doesn’t kill
The disturbing thing to me is that someone would be paid $400 to do the procedure on a newborn. On a 13 year old–$400 would be a bargain. But a newborn? Should be part of the delivery fee.
“This is a large leap ahead in how physicians are trained to perform circumcisions, which at 1 million annually, is the most common surgical procedure,” says researcher Daniel Yawman, MD, MPH, a pediatrician at Golisano Children’s Hospital at Strong and Rochester General Hospital, in a news release. “There is no reason a newborn should have to endure the pain of circumcision without a local or topical anesthetic.”
Researchers say the results show that the debate over whether babies feel pain during circumcision has ended. Since 1999, most major medical associations, including the American Academy of Pediatrics, have recommended the use of anesthetics to provide pain relief for infant circumcision.
http://www.webmd.com/parenting/news/20060720/doctors-now-ease-pain-of-circumcision
That’s called caution and an ability to bill more because more was done (administration of anesthesia). That doesn’t mean it was necessary, just that they want to do (and bill) for it.
No, I quoted that article because researchers seem to have come to the consensus that infants DO feel pain.
I myself study human sexuality, in psychology. Also, I am Jewish. Fist, I take offense as to what you said earlier. Just because people are anti-circumcision I do not believe that makes them Anti-Semitic. Besides, as you stated yourself, many cultures in the US (other than Jews) circumcise their children. It is one thing to take issue with a procedure, and quite another to take issue with a religion.
Secondly, there have, in fact, been studies on the sensation of the penis before and after the foreskin is removed. Of the one’s I know, these studies are conducted on either a) men who opt to circumcise their penises in adulthood, or b) comparing circumcised adults to uncircumcised adults. As a clinical researcher, I am sure you know that although these studies also carry some flaws, they still have merit and show insight to the differences of men who are circumcised and uncircumcised. It was found that men who are circumcised report less sensation in the head of the penis. Although, overall sexual pleasure was not reported as significantly different. At least, that is all that I remember off the top of my head. But, I am sure with a bit of research, you could find studies like this online. There are quite a few of them.
Lastly, I do agree with you that uncircumcised men have a higher likelihood of contracting the diseases stated above, BUT adequate washing of the foreskin has significantly reduced the risk of these diseases. And, I have to say, this is why the significant decrease in HIV rates in Africa after circumcision is not surprising to me, since adequate hygiene is less in the poorer areas (where HIV is the highest). So yes, I believe it is a bit misleading to compare uncircumcised men in the US to uncircumcised men in Africa without taking these things into account.
Now, I myself am not strongly for or against circumcision. I cannot tell you what I would do if I had a boy. However, I did take offense to the way you were putting down others to get your own point across. And, as a human sexuality major well-versed in research methods and statistics, I did feel you were overreaching in some of your claims.
Just to clarify, Sexologist…you are responding to John?
Yes, AAG, that comment is for John.
Thanks for clarifying. Doesn’t look like he’s been back to verify his research about babies feeling no pain. :(
I was circumcised as an infant largely, I believe, due to the religious views of my parents. I can’t say that I wish it hadn’t been done. I have not had any issues resulting from the circumcision, nor do I have any way to know “what I’m missing” so to speak (at least, health and sensation-wise).
Luvbunny and I have two daughters and no sons, so the issue never came up for us. All those years ago, it’s likely that if we had a boy he would have been circumcised – largely because I am. Now, I’m not so sure.
“I want my son’s to be like mine,” is, I think, the least logical argument for circumcision.
It’s like saying, “I’ve got a tattoo so I’ll get him tattooed at birth.” Or “I’ve bifurcated my tongue so I’ll get his bifurcated at birth too.”
Oooooo I take that back. “I don’t want him to get teased by the other boys,” is the least logical.
Interesting. We seem to agree on at least one aspect of this topic. Yay!
Indeed.
In my case, some 12 – 14 years ago, I was quite a bit less educated, and quite a bit more indoctrinated into my parents religion.
Now, after a few years have passed, I would like to think that I am a bit more educated, and able to think for myself.
If we were to have a son now, I would do as much research (on both sides) as I could (and I expect that Luvbunny would do the same), and we would make what we felt to be the best decision.
I imagine that we would decide to wait, although in truth, I can’t say for certain as we are not *actually* in that position.
AAG, thank you for being part of the emerging vanguard of sexually sophisticated young American women. If the American Foreskin Holocaust is stopped, it will be thanks to women like you and to the young mothers you influence.
The least logical arguments for routine circ are “if he’s uncircumcised, no girl will ever give him a BJ” and “most girls of the sort we would be happy for him to be involved with will stop dating him, once they find out what he looks like down there.”
Being teased in the locker room is a risk boys run only when they’re of middle school and high school age. Once in college or in an adult gym, a man’s penis is never talked about. I spent my youth living in terror of being mocked for having a “weird dick that looks like a worm.” That terror made me better appreciate the self-torture many young women go through about their bodies. The deep insecurity of Jewish boys when they attended European public schools. And the fear gay teenage boys have of being outed.
Just some links to ponder.
Catholics Against Circumcision
Pamphlets and Handouts
Comparison Between Male and Female Circumcision
Restoring the Foreskin
History of Circumcision
Jews Against Circumcision
In Memory of the Sexually Mutilated Child
Common Myths
The Lost List
Sex as Nature Intended It
peace…
My boyfriend and I have both decided not to circumcise any male child we might have. My boyfriend because he didn’t like that it was done to him. Even though he doesn’t have any side affects associated with it, he’d have rather made his own choice. I don’t want it done because I see no reason to. I dated a boy when I was 15 who was uncircumcised. I have never had so much fun with a cock lol. I loved how sensitive he was. Things other boys would yawn at had him crawling up the walls. I don’t really understand women who have something against it.
Thank you for being part of the turning tide. It is women of your generation who will end the American Foreskin Holocaust.
I understand all too well why many American mothers are reluctant to hang up the scalpel. They have never seen foreskin in the flesh and are grossed out by the idea. (In many parts of the USA, the only reliable way to find an intact man is to have a fling with an immigrant who is neither Jewish nor Muslim.) They know that they would probably terminate a sexual relationship upon discovering that the dude was intact, and project their feelings on their son’s future dates. Mommy has never seen a foreskin in the flesh, and doesn’t want to be reminded of foreskin every time she changes her boy’s diaper or gives him a bath. Daddy is deeply unsettled by the thought of seeing his son’s “weird dick.” So the foreskin’s gotta go, in the interests of being like other proper middle class Americans and out of respect for sexual propriety. Circumcision is a hard bastion of American prudery.
I think that circumcision is completely unnecessary. Frankly institutionalized mutilation is generally a bad idea. I was circumcised, and my parents never even considered that it might be wrong.
I’m American, 65 yrs old and uncut. I’ve never had any problem, never had a negative comment from one of the lots of women I’ve been with over the years. Take a shower a day and wash yourself. There’s no extra maintenance involved. Just basic hygiene. I can’t imagine being circumcised as a adult. Just the idea gives me a case of the lama damas. My guess is that most other sentient males would think the same way.
Removing infants’ cheeks at birth also cuts down on cases of dental caries. And STD’s, oddly enough …
i have a question for John. If infants under one week old do not feel pain, why do they cry when their heel is pricked for the PKU, and why do they scream bloody murder when they are being circumcised? My son is not cut, nor will any subsequent sons i have be, but i have plenty of friends who did it so they’d “look like” their dads, and have regretted it afterward once they heard their baby screaming when the procedure was done. i also know a lot of women who have chosen not to circ a second son because of this.
They feel pressure, not pain, the same way one feels pressure not pain during a dental procedure.
How do you know this?
Why does your research go contrary to the accepted medical findings?
If they’re not in pain, why do they cry when they’re hungry, cold, wet?
They cry because it’s the only thing they can do to communicate. They may not feel pain, they do feel pressure, therefore they cry. They’re hungry, they cry. When born, not every child cries. Do you really think having coming through the birth canal they’re not in some pain? After all, the meninges are among the most innervated for pain places in the body, and the skull moves quite a bit during childbirth. Why don’t they cry then?
Again I ask:
How do you know this?
Why does your research go contrary to the accepted medical findings?
Also, i don’t think this has anything to do with Anti-semitism, as circumcision, in the religious aspect at least, has come very far from where it once was. Religious circumcision USED to involve only the removal of a small PIECE of a boy’s foreskin, while now it involves removing it completely.
And the rate of circumcision in America is down to only around 55%. And dropping.
I prefer sex with circumsized men. Uncircumsized is okay, but I prefer no foreskin. My X of 2.5 years was uncirc’d, my current boyfriend of 2 years is circ’d; he chose to get it done about a year before he met me as he couldn’t pull the head all the way out. He said he walked bow legged for a while and it hurt very, very badly. He couldn’t have sex for quite a while. Even now I need to be a bit careful with foreplay and he needs to be a bit careful with positions as it can get hurt or pulled quite easily. That being said, he also gets frequent feeling and phantom pain from the incision from the removal of his appendix a number of years ago. Maybe he is just sensitive. I will never know.
I was circumcised when I was about 2 years old. It seems that I was having some difficulty peeing and couldn’t retract my foreskin without discomfort. So I was whisked into hospital and operated on as it seemed to be the fashion in those days to cut it off at the least excuse. I’m sure my parents thought they were doing the right thing but I really wish they had left me alone or found another way of easing my discomfort.
That said, my penis seems to have functioned well in every respect and still does so I cannot claim to have been disadvantaged in any way.
Had I had a son I would not have agreed his circumcision any more than I would have considered any form of genital mutilation of my girls.
@lapis ruber,
Having faced that choice with our son (at an older age) after dealing with months of pain and suffering on the part of our son, we finally decided that we didn’t have a choice in the matter and circumcised him. I don’t know about your parents but at least on our part, it was an agonized decision not lightly undertaken and after we’d exhausted other possibilities. In retrospect, I kinda wished that we had gone straight for circumcision rather than the extra months of pain while trying other options. I’d give your parents’ the benefit of the doubt.
I am a man with a foreskin and love the feeling it gives me, and I’ve never had a problem with it. The best and latest research on infant circumcision has been done by the Royal Australasian College of Physicians 2009, and they recommend against it. Read it you might all learn something about the cirtical cost benefit analysis of neonatal circumcision.
Interesting. Here’s the text:
The Paediatrics & Child Health Division, The Royal Australasian College of Physicians (RACP) has prepared this statement on routine circumcision of newborn and infant boys for doctors who are asked to advise on or undertake the procedure and to assist parents who are considering having this procedure undertaken on their male children.
Circumcision of males has been undertaken for religious and cultural reasons for many thousands of years and it remains an important ritual in some religious and cultural groups. In Australia and New Zealand, the circumcision rate has fallen considerably in recent years and it is estimated that currently around 10-15% of newborn male infants are routinely circumcised.
Circumcision is now generally performed with local or general anaesthesia, and when the procedure is undertaken for a medical indication this is usually outside of the neonatal period.
When considering routine infant circumcision, ethical concerns have focused on recognition of the functional role of the foreskin, the non-therapeutic nature of the operation, and the psychological distress felt by some adult males circumcised as infants. The possibility that routine circumcision contravenes human rights has been raised because circumcision is performed on a minor for non-clinical reasons, and is potentially without net clinical benefit for the child.
Recently there has been renewed debate regarding both the possible health benefits and the ethical concerns relating to routine male circumcision. The most important conditions where some benefit may result from circumcision are urinary tract infections, and in adults HIV infection and cancer of the penis. The frequency of these conditions, the level of protection offered by circumcision and complication rate of circumcision do not warrant a recommendation of universal circumcision for newborn and infant males in an Australian and New Zealand context.
After extensive review of the literature the RACP does not recommend that routine circumcision in infancy be performed, but accepts that parents should be able to make this decision with their doctors. One reasonable option is for routine circumcision to be delayed until males are old enough to make an informed choice. In all cases where parents request a circumcision for their child the medical attendant is obliged to provide accurate information on the risks and benefits of the procedure. Up-to-date, unbiased written material summarising the evidence should be widely available to parents. In the absence of evidence of substantial harm, parental choice should be respected.
If the operation is to be performed, the medical attendant should ensure this is done by a competent surgeon, using appropriate anaesthesia and in a safe child-friendly environment.
27 August 2009
N.B. The full RACP Circumcision policy will be made available on the RACP website once the current review has been completed.
http://www.racp.edu.au/page/health-policy-and-advocacy/paediatrics-and-child-health
You know, it wasn’t that long ago when the Royal Colleges insisted that allowing women to have therapeutic abortions would lead to the downfall of society. Funny, they were wrong once. Guess it can’t happen again? Or do we make it up as we go along, picking and choosing which pronouncements we want to follow?
It is called “learning more.” Or “research.” I try to follow what my own logic tells me is best and most reasonable. You should too.
My sons were all circumcised at the mandated age of 8 days by a certified “Mohel” who, in our case, was also a Rabbi. The infant gets no anesthetic for the procedure; instead, to symbolize both the pain and joy of being Jewish, the baby sucks on a linen cloth which has been dipped in wine. Yes, the baby experiences pain after the bris; that’s a given. But sucking on a cloth with a few drops of good kosher sweet wine usually quiets the tears quickly.
All Jews should be circumcised as infants. They will want to be members of their religion and their families when they grow up.
Non-Jews? I’m not convinced that the so-called health benefits make up for the potential benefits the other way. I was circumcised as an infant myself, and certainly, it caused me no life-long trauma. But I also LITERALLY don’t know what I’m missing. In some minuscule way, perhaps, I regret that. I am not so well endowed that a little bit more in the “package” would not have been unhelpful. But I’ll never know.
Leave the decision to the parents. Like most questions about medical care, the government should have NO role at all.
I don’t have my foreskin anymore but sometimes I wish I still did. My junk is not real sensitive…the ladies like it because I can last a long time but I would prefer to get off without having to slam my thang in a car door to get some feeling down there.
Having said that, I think the purple helmet looks cooler.
My brother was circumcised as well but they left quite a bit. He’s 50/50 and he gloats that he has the best of both worlds.
There is a 2000+ posts long discussion thread going on about male circumcision in the group “2 million people against Female Circumcision” on facebook. There is a sea of information and arguments on both sides of the divide there. I’d like to suggest anyone who are curious and would like more opinions to hop over there and have a read on all the comments there.
Here are some facts that I just stole from that thread. Didn’t have time to do this the other day, so doing it now.
The aids argument have been proven falsed, yet it is still very widely quoted.
Link here: http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSN0345545120071204
and here: http://www.norm-uk.org/circumcision_hiv.html
The same study which claimed HIV protection for circumcised African men also found that women whose husbands were circumcised for the trial had an increased risk of catching HIV of 58% compared to the women whose men were left intact.
75% of the sexual nerve endings of a male are in the prepuce.
1 in 125 uncircumcised men get urinary tract infections (and less for circumcised men) (and 1 in 20 for women….)
1 in 10 circumcised men develop meatal stenosis.
Male circumcision was promoted in the past to stop/reduce masturbation
http://www.cirp.org/pages/whycirc.html
Some people are of the opinion that male circumcision is forced cosmetic surgery
There are no professional medical authority in the whole world which promotes routing male infant circumcision
http://www.icgi.org/2009/06/changing-how-america-thinks-about-circumcision/
I hate people who say ‘leave it to the parents to decide.’
For vaccinations, routine treatment – that’s FINE. But for the unnecessary amputation of healthy tissue from an infant’s genitals? That’s NOT their choice to make.
I want equality for infant females and males. It’s against the law to alter a females genitals in any way before she’s 18. IT SHOULD BE THE SAME FOR BOYS.
I also have no sympathy for Muslims or Jews who want it done for religious reasons. Religious freedom in America shouldn’t extend to butchering children. Period.
I’m so glad the First Amendment applies to everyone except Jews and Muslims. God Bless America, if you’re Christian. I guess we’re back to Jews and Muslims should go to hell. Wasn’t there an effort by some folks in Europe who insisted Jews were sub-human, in part because of circumcision. Hmmmm. Yes, I seem to remember that one. And here in Christian America, we’ll all go to Kansas, where teaching evoluation is banned and Intelligent Design triumphs.
Hang on a sec.
I thought that Champagne and Benzedrine said that male circumcision should be illegal in the USA with no exceptions for religious grounds.
But here it sounds like John thought that Champagne and Benzedrine said Jews and Muslims should go to hell.
Have I missed something? I’m quite confused.
Wouldn’t making male circumcision illegal in the USA give it the same status as female circumcision, which, along with cultural reasons, is also practised for religious reasons by some Muslims elsewhere? And if that’s so, does that mean that at the moment the first amendment applies to boys but not girls in regards to circumcision?
What’s that got to do with the price of milk, John? Since when was mutilating an infant’s genitals a ‘First Amendment Right’? What the hell has that got to do with Kansas and Intelligent design?
I’m not sure what your choice has been in this matter, if you’ve made one at all, but I implore you to follow your gut instinct in this matter.
I have a 2-yr old daughter, and during my pregnancy with her, I scoured the internet, read books and talked to doctors, searching for the circumcision answer just in case I had a boy. See, I have a 16-yr old boy whom I had circumcised at birth, and I have felt tremendous guilt for a long time now for subjecting my new baby to an unnecessary procedure that is painful and causes extended discomfort.
My brother laments his lost foreskin, angry — if the topic is raised in conversation — that he was denied the right to make his own decision about permanent body modification on his own.
I don’t know if you are familiar with Mothering magazine, but they have a large community of mostly-natural-minded, Natural Family Living members (some of who are a bit extreme and wild in their ideals), but there is a HUGE amount of information on circumcision and why you should not choose it for your baby boy.
Good luck coming to your own answer. I know it is a difficult choice to make.
I know I’m really late to the party, but for some reason BlogLines says there is something wrong with the RSS feed I currently have for your site, so I’m playing catch-up.
Before our son was born, I had somewhat grudgingly agreed to have him ‘cut’ as my husband is, and felt that it was important (for medical reasons) for our son to be as well.
Labor was a long-haul for us, my son was born purple, not breathing, in serious distress. Half an hour after he was born, when I finally got to hold him, I decided I couldn’t possibly let him experience anything else horrific, that wasn’t totally necessary. Due to his jaundice, they had to take blood from him 15 times before we left the hospital, and that was awful enough.
My husband and I fought about it a little, but in the end I just flatly refused, and now Jack is glad that I didn’t just give in. None of the boys in my family are circumcised, and none of them has ever had an issue with it. As my mom said, it’s like teaching them to wash behind their ears, not a bid deal.
When my son is older, if he wishes to have it done for his own reasons, he will have the freedom to do so. I can only suppose, if I were male, that I would appreciate the same rights to my own body and my own decisions.
Perhaps we should begin discussion regarding piercing the ears of infant girls? LOL
Shasta
I’ve heard that about BlogLines. Can you delete the feed and add it again?
I don’t have nearly as strong a reaction about ear piercing. It’s reversible! And has nothing to do with the genitals! :)
I did delete the feed and added a different one, which seems to have solved the issue.
I don’t have as strong a reaction to the ears thing either, but I’ve certainly met some who do. I didn’t have my daughter’s done, because I don’t think I should assume to know if she will want pierced ears or not. Plus I had mine done at about 5, and since I wasn’t really old enough to take care of them properly, and my mom was distracted by my brand new brother, they grew in and I have to have them re-pierced at 11. The second time I was the one who really wanted them and therefore took the initiative to keep them clean/etc.
I’m also not a fan of those awful guns they use (one got jammed on my ear during the 5-year-old piercing and I screamed bloody murder) so when she is old enough I’ll take her to one of the reputable body piercers I know and have it done properly.
Shasta
Oh good. Glad the feed is working. I use Google Reader and don’t really keep up with all the other services.
My child would sooner eat lint than have a needle near her body. :)
Sexual Functions of the Foreskin explained in
pictures, video, and text (NSFW explicit images)
http://xrl.us/ForeskinSexualFunctions
http://xrl.us/ChristianeNorthrupMD
http://xrl.us/WhyWomenLikeNaturalSex
.
John:
Circumcision after the neonatal period is a lot more expensive. But that’s in good part because corners you can cut with a 1 day old cannot be cut with a 15 or 30 year old. Circumcision after infancy is less risky than infant circumcision, because men don’t wear diapers. Men can actively cooperate in their recovery. It is much easier to do circ right when the penis is full grown, and when the foreskin has detached from the glans.
I would not have like the idea that my parents had me circumcised because they adversely prejudged my ability to practice sex responsibly while in my teens. I do not like to be on the receiving end of an assumed worst case scenario. That deprives me of a chance to prove my ethical worth.
Where I live, the circ rate in the 1970s was about 40% (it is now zero). A careful study of STD incidence in a group now 35 years old show no difference in STD infection rates between cuts and uncuts. The supposed evidence that uncut is unhealthy fails to control for the fact that in English speaking countries, cut is upscale, and boys born in better families tend to behave better as group. They bonk a better type of girl, and are more likely to use a condom when they do it.