aag

I, too, was raised Christian and have basically eschewed the religion entirely. I do not believe in god, I do not believe in prayer, and I would find it highly unlikely that a Christian counselor would do a whole heck of alot else than have you pray, and WWJD, and bring god into the whole mess. god/christianity cannot change the past, cannot reverse wrongdoings, and unless they throw you in a cult and convert you…isn’t going to change your mind.

Honestly, I think it’s just going to annoy the piss out of you. I see it akin to going to church - if you don’t believe in god, really, why bother going?

In your situation, I would do the same with, as with regards about leaving your children with your parents.

These are your children, not theirs. At the same time, what has happened in your family is almost unforgivable. I would never put my children in that situation.

As per counseling, especially some faith based Christian counseling, I would be completely against it. I would consider normal therapy, but in no ends would this mean that the parents would get to see your children alone…

My two cents.

I have a single-word answer: “Move”. Out of state. The benefits of adding some physical distance between parents and children cannot be over-emphasized.

A Christian counselor will stress forgiveness. Not responsibility. A Christian counselor will stress acceptance not protection. A Christian counselor will stress trusting in God, not in your instincts.

I can see why your parents want a Christian counselor as opposed to a counselor who is Christian. They want to continue to believe that the persons that did what they did to you are dead. Now with Christ in their lives, they are reborn, new, innocent. A Christian counselor will support the charade.

As you are comfortable with normal therapy, I suggest saying that you will only deal with a real “licensed” therapist that specializes in cases such as yours. One that you have screened and accepted. That this person can be Christian, but that this person must put counseling, healing and the patients needs above doctrine.

And quite frankly, no decent counselor will help your parents get unsupervised visits with your children. Based on what they did, they should feel lucky to get supervised visits.

You should be frank and say that this is non-negotiable, and that no amount of counseling will change this. They should feel lucky you are simply talking to them.

Lilly said it well.

Stick to your guns, decline to find a counselor and let them be angry. They don’t want to fix this, they want you to forgive them and let them have what they want. YOUR wants and needs don’t even enter into it.

Some things can’t be fixed. Sadly, your relationship with your parents appears to be one of them. The best you can probably hope for is an uneasy truce. Do what you must to protect your children and yourself and be at peace with it.

Stand your ground, girl. Follow your instincts, and protect yourself and your children. If your parents can’t honor and respect the basic tenets of your relationship, then they are the ones ultimately jeopardizing it. I don’t think you’ve been unreasonable at all and yet they keep on pushing your boundaries. What will happen if you give in? Do you think they will happy with the ground they’ve gained? I don’t think so. More likely, they’ll just keep on pushing.. If you let them.

They want someone neutral, so that he or she hears our “sides” of the story without the impediment of a past relationship.

I have a slightly different viewpoint than most of the other commenters. Although I do not advocate a Christian counselor (for a variety of reasons), I would suggest considering a traditional therapist. Someone “neutral” is the right way to go if you do. Since they are unwilling to find a counselor, you could ask your therapist to recommend someone and then give your parents the option of seeing that person with you.

I am in favor of considering seeing someone because this situation seems to be causing you ongoing stress and discomfort. There is a chance (even if it is slim) that a therapist might be able to help your parents see things a bit differently. If not, you would at least know that you tried this one last time and might be able to move on knowing that you have done everything you could reasonably be expected to do AND some extra!

I’d lay it flat out: You will never get unsupervised visits. Period. And I’d list in minute detail why not.

THEN, I’d offer them the name(s) of 2-3 counselors OR the name of your state therapist referral service (which will literally just give you names of those who are legal to practice whatever it is you want them to practice) and tell them the truth… You don’t have TIME to fix THEM. It’s up to them to make their own happy, and for them to lay the guilt trip of ‘Well, if YOU really CARED, YOU would do this for us‘ is just bullshit.

I have a bit of experience finding counselors and with Christian counselors, so I figured I should speak up…

I suggest finding a licensed counselor who YOU like, and more importantly, one who has experience with victims of sexual assault. Explain the situation to the counselor, explain your thoughts, etc in the first meeting, and then ask the counselor if they would consider themselves personally to be Christian, of any denomination. If they say they are (and most are, simply because most Americans are), voila, you have a Christian counselor– as in, a counselor who is Christian. You could even describe them as such to your parents. Your own therapist might be able to recommend someone who would be appropriately Christian while still just being a regular counselor.

Another option is finding a counselor who is affiliated with Unitarian Universalism or another very liberal branch of Christianity, and again, making sure they are both a licensed counselor and experienced with sexual assault victims. Most such counselors would side with you and provide normal counseling, but would still be able to provide the Christian aspect of the counseling for your parents, such as, I don’t know, Bible quotes about parents being responsible for their children’s protection and discussions on how forgiveness and forgetting are not the same thing.

Best of luck. And for what it’s worth, unless you get a very crazy Christian counselor, even a faith-based counselor would side with you on this one, and say supervised visits only. Forgiveness does not mean failing to learn from the past.

There is a vast chasm of difference between “forgiveness” and “pardon” - these terms are not interchangeable. For example, a prisoner who has completed his sentence is “forgiven” and allowed to rejoin society, albeit with certain restrictions placed on their regained freedom (such as having sex offenders register their address and/or being banned from coming within X feet of schools).

But a prisoner who has been “pardoned” is freed with his record clean, quite possibly also with apologies if it’s proven he was jailed in error.

It’s obvious that your parents do not qualify for “pardon” based on this example. They are oh-so-guilty of a crime, and should not be treated as such.

If you can afford the luxury of a counselor, they need to suck it up and attend the meetings you choose. And remind them that you don’t get into heaven by whining “let me in! I’ll be good, PROMISE!!!” at the gates.

You have already gotten good advice about finding a real therapist, not a christian whatever, so I do not have to add to that. The thing you need to remember is whatever it was, this evil, that was done to you. You cannot fix a pedophile. You cannot fix a molester. You cannot fix something that warped and nasty. Most pedophiles molest 150 children before being caught even though they have been arrested and given probation in the past. You cannot fix this type of mental illness.

Do not allow them unsupervised visitation. Move to the other side of the country if necessary; change your name if necessary. Protect your babies and prevent the harm you suffered from visiting them.

Rock on.

You would be justified either in saying no, no, no way. And you would be justified in making the attempt. Frankly, I find it an amazing example of forgiveness that you speak to them at all.

Not knowing where you are, or how diverse the counseling community is where you are, I’d start with the Kink Aaware Professionals listing, call up the counselors and ask if they are Christian.

Then screen them - before you even mention to your parents that you’ve made the effort to look.

sparkle

For goodness sake, don’t let them wear you down. Trust your instincts. I think you’re right in your apprehension, and nothing can come of this counseling other than you losing your resolution.

[i]They argue that God has forgiven them for any sins they committed some thirty years ago, and that if God can forgive, I should be able to also. [/i]

That is all a “christian therapist” will reiterate.

[i]Seeing an opening, my visitors then charge the new barrier. They butt up against it so hard that I can barely hold the gate ahead of their barreling charge. I add new reinforcements, extra electrification, higher boards. And my visitors complain.[/i]

I hate to just post with quotes from your past entries! I can’t help but feel that this is exactly what is occurring at this particular moment.

It seems to me as if they are trying to find any means necessary to ultimately get unsupervised visits. You don’t respond to their counselor? Great, we’ll get another one. Nevermind the fact that they won’t even make one visit to your counselor. For that reason I doubt their sincerity.

Really though, what do they want to do with your kids so badly that you have to be vacant from the premises for them to accomplish?

I would say give them a big fat NO on their offer, and counter with another. This offer would be to repair your relationship with THEM and see if anything else can be discussed. Unfortunately, in cases like this, this won’t be accomplished to your satisfaction. :(

As I’ve said before, stay strong, AAG. Stand your ground, you’re the only one that has to live with your decisions. Tell them to take their judgment elsewhere.

Side: Even if you were to come to a favorable (for them) conclusion to this doesn’t mean that your ex husband will even allow such a thing anyway. :/ You need to remind them that this was not only a personal decision but a joint decision that doesn’t begin and end with you.

I knew a woman whose two children had been sexually molested by a babysitter. The molestation took place over thirty years ago, when the American public was beginning to learn about the prevalence of sexual abuse and understand its lifelong effects. When the children’s father learned what had occurred, he immediately fired the babysitter. However, due to his own dysfunctional childhood (a home in which no one never spoke about the “bad” things), the father did not tell his wife about their children’s molestation. The mother was a professional who worked long hours and was the major wage earner in the family, hence the need for a babysitter. She did not learn of the molestation until years later when both children were severely depressed, suicidal and required psychiatric counseling.

When one of the children was a man in his late twenties, he decided that he did not want to have any more contact with his mother. The family had gone through counseling and his parents had apologized repeatedly for what happened to their children. The son accepted his parents’ apologies, but he said that in all things, his mother, not her children, came first: her decision to work full-time, his father’s decision to “protect” the mother by concealing the harm done to their children, the way the mother used her son as a confidant, telling him about her problems, rather than listening to his.

When this woman related this story to me, she said, “My son has no idea how much he has hurt me. I’ve told him I’m sorry. I feel like my heart is breaking.” And she began to cry.

But she never mentioned the emotional pain that her children endured for so many years: the mood swings, the panic attacks, the sense of being so damaged that suicide seemed to be the only option.

Perhaps your parents have said that their hearts are breaking. To which I answer: Better their hearts than your children’s.

Forget about this Christian counselor business. It’s a ploy to weaken the barrier you created to protect your children. Besides, the God the Father could use a remedial course in parenting. It’s not by chance that the ten commandments proclaim, Honor thy mother and thy father, but omit the rule, Love and protect thy children.

This really throws me because I wasn’t brought up in the Christian tradition. Actually, that’s not strictly true, because Iwas brought up in a secular European country where the majority see Christian culture (which would be difficult to ignore, re architecture etc.) as a basis but are not actively practising Christians (hope this makes sense). For most people, religion isn’t a big deal here.

I think a counselor who needs to bring a particular faith into the mix to “heal”, bring clarity or whatever is limited in his/her focus and tools of trade if not possibly wearing blinkers. If Christianity is a red rag to you I’d stay well away. Don’t compromise. Say you want a neutral, non-faith based counselor.

o xxx

Now that we’re no longer married and yet the rule still stands, they have reached another crisis. They want our relationship to be fixed. They would like for me to find them a counselor who will help us.

Self-serving hogwash. They have no intention to change. They just want you convinced to let your defences down.

You asked them not to read your weblog. You asked them not to research your livelihood. They ignored every single one of the boundaries you set. What in all heavens makes you think they will respect any boundaries your children set, or any boundaries you set for your children?

Stick to your guns. Do not negotiate with avaricious coercers.

And please contemplate cutting contact entirely, or at least getting as close to that state of affairs as possible. You are not doing yourself a favour by keeping in touch.

Is forgiveness really the issue?

You can have forgiven your parents their trespasses - and to a certain extent it sounds like you have. But that does not mean you have to trust them.

Forgiveness does not equal letting go of all sense and reason.

And on your parents part, forgiveness of a past sin does not earn them your trust that they will not do it again.

And behind all of this, one wonders why it is so important to them that they spend alone time with your children. We had no issues at all with my grandparents, but we still spent relatively little time with them unsupervised - simply because they had their lives, and mum, dad and us kids had ours. What could they achieve one on one that they can’t achieve with you in the house?

(And just in passing, without wishing to perpetuate any racial or religious stereotypes, I suggest you find a Jewish psychologist - just to mix things up a bit. A Jewish lesbian psychologist would be even better.)

well I’m christian and I wouldn’t advise a christian counsellor either lol.

Why don’t you and your ex get together, go around to their house and tell them in words of one syllable that they’re never going to have unsupervised access and that’s that. If you both stand together on it they won’t be able to argue and it won’t all be on your head.

I agree with Damian - I find it suspect that they’re agitating so hard for unsupervised access …

maybe you should remind them that legally hey have no rights to your children *at all*

Give it a wdie, wide swerve. Don’t touch it with a ten foot pole (as we say here in England).

The only possible outcome of this is that someone will try to fuck with your head.

And there is a hige difference between forgiveness and foolishness. I forgive the woman who did our accounts and stole $200k (because she is a bti mad, has problems etc). But I would NOT give her a company card and let her do the accounts again.

Same with you - forgiving your parents does not mean that you have to leave them alone with your children.

And in asking you to do that as a sign of your forgiveness, they are showinig that they are unworthy of that trust.

For the perpetrator to demand forgiveness of the victim is de facto a form of bullyinig and further abuse. Until they understand that, they have learnt nothing.

I have some personal experience of the issues you are dealing with, and urge you to stay strong and stick to what you know and feel is right and safe.

And then love yourself all the more for being a good, strong and protective mother.

Hmm. Well, a lot of what I might say has already been covered in these comments, but you did ask, so here’s another take:

The supervised visits your parents have continually reminder them of their own fuckupperies and sins, so to speak. The issue isn’t ever going to become a non-issue, even if through some wacky twist you do end up granting them unsupervised visits. If that were the case you would probably worry constantly. Since it’s not the case and likely never will be, the rule will continue to be a sore spot.

So perhaps what you need to do is evaluate that idea of “fixing” your relationship with them. Frankly, that’s impossible. It will never be fixed, because the issue can never be *erased.* If what they want is to have the problem erased, then their request is insane and the counseling is pointless.

If they want to try and understand the issue better, or come to a better place with you on it, *and* they understand that doing so does not equal unsupervised visitation rights to your children, then possibly their request is valid. I would suggest that you consider entering therapy if and only if this is the case, and if and only if you think that doing so will benefit you.

So, do they really want to work on your relationship? Or do they want to get rid of the nagging reminder that they were bad parents? And most crucial of all: Do you care?

Wow… I’m guessing you no longer need to ask; however, my two cents.

Faith-wise, I’m a Pagan - Wiccan, if you want to pin it down that far. It really has little to do with my answer, though.

No unsupervised visits, EVER. These are YOUR children. They’ve already succeeded in harming you. They should have no opportunity to harm your children.

And I’m not sure that it wouldn’t be a good idea to do as some of the others have said and widen the distance between you and them.

I agree with most of the above. You have to ask yourself (and them) what the goal of the counselor would be. If you are not a practicing Christian, and you have no interest in reentering the church–I don’t see how a Christian counselor could help. The thing that Christian counselors bank on, I would imagine, is group prayer and faith. If three people in the room have that and you don’t, well I’m just not sure how well that would work for you.

Maybe a compromise of some sort. Go to a church (or several) and speak with whoever it is there that does counseling, and ask them to recommend someone that does traditional non-faith-based counseling. Maybe someone that is a member of the church. Maybe your parents would feel more comfortable if the therapist happened to BE a “good” Christian, without having to counsel you down the Christian path?

Good luck.

AAG,
I think Lily and Kochanie said it well. Your kids are the most important relationship here. From reading you seem to be doing an admirable job of raising them. Keep that up and stick to your principles. Don’t let them threaten you either.
Pete

The only possible reason I see for going to counseling is so your parents can pull their heads out of their asses and take responsibilty for what they’ve done/not done.

If you can find one that you can all agree upon and NOT discuss your sex life, this blog, etc., I’d say give it a shot. Although I wouldn’t recommend a “Christian” counselor because I fear there’d be more prosletizing than counseling.

Frankly, I’m not sure why you should afford them the courtesy of going to THEIR counselor when they wanted nothing to do with your suggestion.

I would say “yes” if and only if it was YOUR counselor. Then, if that went well, MAYBE you could consider a Christian counselor.

I’m a firm Golden Rule believer, and they didn’t treat you how they want to be treated, IMHO. Plus, I have a huge distrust of most organized religion because they seem more into recruiting people than living by their own rules. Not all, I know, and I don’t mean to offend … that’s just been my personal experience with the many varied churches I’ve attended or visited.

Abusive parents like the Christian counselor route because they think of it as appealing to a higher authority. A normal counselor can tell you to forgive your parents and you can say ‘fuck off’. A Christian counselor however is invested with the wisdom of angels and if you ignore that, well, you’re going to Hell.

The fact that they so desperately want to win this argument says a lot more about their need for control than their desire for you to be happy.

Going on what you’ve written as well as my own experience:

You will only be giving them power by entering into any such arrangement — regardless of the faith of the counselor.

They are only trying to worm their way into your head and your life. They do not have your best interests, nor the best interests of your children at heart.

Do you want to give them that? Your way forward is clear.

Here are the points that jump out at me:

1. Your mom & dad are still in denial about whatever happened to make you not trust them with your kids.

2. They won’t play by your rules, and instead force you to come to them.

3. Umm, wasn’t this blog started as a way of getting AWAY from your ex? While reconciliation can be a good thing, it’s even tougher than a new relationship, since it’s just so easy to slip back into old habits. this counselor your parents are pushing isn’t going to give you two the tools to prevent all the old behaviors from coming back.

So, unless your parents have some kind of financial hold on you, fuck ‘em. (figuratively, of course.) Nothing I’ve read here indicates that they have any real compassion for you or your children. They seem to have their own self-serving interests in mind.

Hi AAG,

Wow– these are some of the most insightful comments I’ve ever read on any blog, about anything — ever.

Of course not. The Christian counselor still means that they are living in myth and unwilling to come to terms with what they are, which would mean that they can never have the access they want.

Tell them that according to your pantheon of Deities that Athena is still pissed. There is nothing that can be done to appease YOUR gods.

There are sins that can never be forgiven. They’re lucky you still have any contact with them at all.

you are the parent, you make the decisions and you have already decided. They want you to “heal” the relationship - i.e. they don’t like your decision and will keep finding new avenues to try and force you to make a decision they like. Stick to your guns. You don’t have to go to counciling because they decide things need to be “healed”

AAG, I have read your post, plus all of the above comments and understand why many say what they have said. And I admit that I don’t know the whole back-story.

But, my comment is different from the rest… I have thought about it as I read the comments, and wondered if maybe I am wrong.. but still I have this feeling…

First off- protecting your children is the most important thing.. absolutely.. no question.

But secondly, there is so much value to a strong family.. and yes that can be very hard to achieve in this world today.. but nevertheless, it can be a great and wonderful dimension of life. If that is even the vaguest possibility with your parents, then I hope you will find a way to make it happen.. and yes it will take time, I am sure.. but it’s worth the effort. Did you have a good relationship with your grandparents?

One other thought, is that we can’t protect our kids from all dangers at all times. But, even more, at some point they need to learn to assess dangers themselves, and make their own decisions. They will get stronger, and be better able to protect themselves each time they handle a challenge and handle it successfully. I think your kids are probably too young at this point to handle the type of challenge they might have to deal with from your parents, but at some point they will be old enough to do it.

Now- as I said above, I don’t know what your parents did, nor how long ago, nor what they have done to make up for all their past “sins”. And, I don’t know if they are 0% trustworthy today or 10% or maybe 25% or whatever.

My recommendation- maybe you can give a small bone to your parents, and let them be at your home with your children with you there, and maybe grandparents and children are all in the playroom together while you zip to the laundry room from time to time. If your parents are sincere, and if you are careful, and you are clear about boundaries and expectations, maybe little by little they can understand your strong motherly protective approach; at the same time, you might develop a little bit of trust for them. Over the course of time, maybe strong bonds of trust and respect can be developed. And of course, if your parents do things which break the small trust you have allowed, then you will probably have to cut off your “experiment”, and decide that no further opportunities will be allowed.

One last thought- (and I admit I am not a psychologist)- Maybe a skilled Lie Detector Technician could interview them, and with a good collection of the right questions, could determine whether your parents are totally trustworthy, and whether or not they have somehow overcome the “character flaws” that caused them to do what they did to you many years ago. Is this a stupid idea, or is it actually workable?.. I don’t really know. All I know is I would want to find some way to have my parents in the lives of their grandchildren.. if I can be assured that I am making sure that the children are safe.

All the best to you.. I know this is a tough decision for you.

Peace,
Sensitive Man

PS- I am Christian, but do not follow all the rules of my religion, and am usually very much at odds with Christian Fundamentalists. One of the greatest things I have learned from my Christian upbringing is forgiveness. (and yes, protecting your children comes first.. but is there some way to strengthen your family through all of this?)

IIRC, you were molested by your father. I think you should write down EVERYTHING that happened between you and your father, down to the last explicit detail, including your physical and emotional reactions. You should make a copy and mail it separately to each of your parents. I suggest this not as a matter of hostility, but as a matter of communication. Make sure each parent knows exactly what the obstacle is to unsupervised time with the kids. Explain how lucky your parents are that you speak to them at all. Explain how lucky they are that you have not sued them. Explain how lucky they are that they were not arrested.

Each time they bring up the unsupervised visitation issue, show them out of the house and explain that they can have a supervised visit again in six months.

If they still want to get a counsellor, ask your therapist to recommend the most pedophile-hostile person available and visit them. (See the counsellor alone first.) It’s unfair, but you’ll get the support which you need and which your parents do not deserve.

Lastly, remind your parents that some things are unforgivable, and child molesters burn in hell, no matter what the doctrine of their bozo church suggests.

I don’t think you should do it. I don’t think you should explain why not any more . As has been pointed out, letting them have unsupervised access to your children is not ABOUT forgiveness in this case. When people behave in this matter they give up their rights to demand access to anyone children (especially those of the child that got abused) for the rest of their lives.

I think you are have a beautiful way with words. I think you should tell them, in your beautiful way, to fuck off, more or less. Because this sounds like bullying and harrassment to me - not the behaviour of loving christian parents.

best of luck

Not sure from your post what your goal would be for counseling: to communicate better with your parents? To perhaps make progress in their understanding of you (maybe just the act of trying will do that, and no change in status is to be expected?)? You seem to believe that you understand them well, and that you don’t expect them to change; healthy. You also state what you think their goal is in counseling.
Perhaps both a secular and a christian counselor, together in each session, might provide detached and contrasting help for both sides. Food for thought; I don’t know if anyone does this, or how expensive it could get to be.

You know, I am very impressed with the vast majority of the comments that people left for you. I didn’t read them all, but there is some really good advice there. I only hope mine might be as meaningful.
I consider myself a “card-carrying” Christian, and I feel that you should definitely be able to find a Christian counselor that will see things your way and help your parents understand the situation as well IF you want to find one. Whether it is worth your time to possibly repair some portion of your relationship with your parents is up to you.
I will agree with many that have chimed in here and said that forgiving and forgetting are not the same thing. If your parents have repented and made their peace with God and you for the things that they did wrong, then God will forgive them. You have no way to know whether that repentance is complete and total or not, only God knows. Your #1 job is protecting your children. Due to what happened in the past, it is possible that it would happen again and it is up to you to make sure that you don’t put your children in a position where it could happen to them. If the best way to do that is to not allow your parents to see your children unsupervised, then that is the way it needs to be and they should understand that and be satisfied with the relationship that you will allow them to have with your children.
I will tell you that in the Christian church that I belong to, if a person is publicly accused of abuse to a child that person’s contact with children is severly restricted for the rest of their life regardless of their standing within the church. That means even if they have done everything within the church to be forgiven for the sin, they are still not allowed to be in positions where that behavior might be repeated. In your case, there might not be a public conviction of what your parents did to you, but you know about it, and that means that you (and any one else that knows about the situation) should not allow your parents to be in a position where they can repeat the transgressions.
I’m not an authority on the subject, but I felt it important to provide my opinion. I know you will make the best decision for yourself and your children.

Ain’t got time to read all the responses but I will quickly say….

“Your kid, your call, their religion, their problem!”

Stick to your guns Honey, you go with what you feel is right. If YOU think you need counseling then fine. Who cares what THEY think YOU need. You aren’t a child, you’re a parent and you seem to be doing the job properly which is quite rare nowadays?

;-)

You have such wonderful bloggy friends who love and support (and even comfort) you. There is little more I could add… but that won’t stop me.

I was raised Christian and continue to attend church and follow its doctrines. I was very lucky (blessed?) to attend a Christian denomination (Episcopalian) that had a priest in the form of a therapist (or vice versa) and provided 3 year’s of free counseling for me and my (ex) husband (separately which worked much better than together). The first words out of my mouth were, “If your goal is ultimately to make me forgive my mother, then we can quit right now.” She (yes, she) confirmed that she would never make me do that, and so we proceeded to make me whole, make me well. And I eventually forgave my mother many many years later on my own terms without the therapist (and after she died… my mother, not the therapist).

This woman would have been considered a Christian counselor, and yet she was a counselor first. She never ever suggested I forgive my mother, let alone the man who abused me. So that said, there are Christian counselors who do not push forgiveness. (It’s been many years, but I don’t ever recall that we bowed our heads in prayer or even sang “Kumbaya” once in our time together.)

That said, your parents have got to accept that your husband supported you on the “no unsupervised visits” and your ex continues to support you on that issue, too. And that “NO MEANS NO.” No counselor worth his or her weight (and the parchment on the wall) will ever give in on that one. I think you have the upper hand in choosing the counselor if AND WHEN you think all this is necessary. They should defer to your choice, whether he or she is Christian or Jewish or African American. I find it amazing you have a relationship at all with them, and they should get down on their knees every day and thank the good Lord for that alone.

Kumbaya, my Lord, Kumbaya!

Hello AAG

As someone who was brought up sort-of-christian but headed elsewhere in my early twenties (Gurdjieff work, the Tibetans, then Rajneesh) I personally would be comfortable seeking counsel only from a guru — a REAL guru — with a broad view, rooted in compassion. Dyed-in-the-wool monotheists of any stripe have NEVER turned me on.

Where to find such an individual? I wish I knew. Hope you make such a connection. Unfortunately, the two who rocked my boat (Trungpa and Rajneesh) have left their bodies.

Sorry I can’t give you real help. But that’s my take on your dilemma.

Yrs in pervery, Adrian

Wow, I have several things to say.
1) Christian counselors (as opposed to counselors who are Christian) are just . . .not worth it. I was sent to a Christian counselor when I was a teenager for depression. It was completely pointless.

2) Why are they so hung up on “unsupervised” visits? I think it’s more normal to see you and your children all at once–everyone gets to visit. I find it strange that they’re pushing this hard for you to not be there. It’s a strange issue for them to fight for. Is it symbolic of something larger, like your ultimate forgiveness? Given what I’ve inferred about your childhood, they should feel lucky they lay eyes on your children at all.

3) I’m so sorry you’re having to deal with this kind of family bullshit. My girlfriend has been estranged from her parents since 2003 and recently had to interact with them when she attended her grandmother’s funeral. She is walking a difficult line between wanting to be involved with the rest of the family but not caving to her parents’ insane demands, beliefs, and exceedingly nasty comments. It’s a painful process to watch.

Maybe I’m a pessimist, but I think that sometimes there are relationships that just can’t be fixed.

No matter how much time passes or how much we talk and dissect a situation, the most we can do is come to some uneasy understanding.

If you are happy with where you are and you have other people around you who support the decisions that you make then is having a good relationship with your parents the most important thing.

Hi AAG,

Others have been supportive and caring and protective of you and your children. I am in complete agreement with all of those comments as well as the ones that talk about your parents’ desire for a Christian counselor as a means of wiping the slate clean for them without dealing with the issues surrounding your abuse.

My different twist is this: You have devoted significant time here to the discussion of setting boundaries, and having them respected. I have always admired your clarity on those issues. If you had a lover or an ex for example, who absolutely would NOT respect your boundaries, you would take whatever steps needed to see that either they begin to conform to said boundaries, or you would modify the parameters of continued interaction such that the choice to respect the boundaries no longer rests with them.

I know that these are your parents, and so that fact MAY remove them from the list of people with whom you would sever a relationship for such disrespect of your decisions, but that is about the only leeway that I would grant them.

Speaking as someone who has endured such trying times with my own parents that I did not speak to either of them for a decade before they passed away, I find that even though my sadness over the situation is crushing at times, I have NEVER regretted advocating for myself and my own little nuclear family against their wishes.

You will never regret protecting your children, even if it causes tension with your parents.

Hey aag:

I think the fundamental point here is whether or not you think there is a “fix” to this “problem” to begin with. I think contemplating what kind of professional to seek really depends alot on whether you believe that at some point a professional will help you enough to change your mind about your parents having solo time with the kids.

It’s difficult to give you a concrete opinion - simply because I don’t know the details of your childhood and past experience. I will give you my opinion as both a single mom of 2 toddler girls and as a very cut throat type of person. To be clear and honest, I dont think there is such a thing as fixing this situation. I think the past happened as it did and that’s all you can base your future decisions on. I think taking a gamble that this mistake will not occur again is too costly for you. I think you will have a harder time living with the notion if indeed some “indescretion” takes place with your children more so than whether or not your parents are happy with their relationship with you. It is not your fault that they acted (or not) the way they did. It is not your job to “fix” the family or change their encounters with your children. You are doing for your children what your mom should have done for you and I back you up 100% on your decision to keep their interactions with the youngens supervised. I know that if it was me, I would not bother with this “adventure”, simply because I dont believe there is a cure for the problem to begin with. I dont believe that someone can abuse a child once and ever be trusted to not do it again - especially MY child. I just wouldnt take the risk. I think you may agree with this as well, but like I said it’s difficult to give a right or wrong answer here. In my opinion I dont think it’s something you should wager on. There is a reason why you havent done it thus far. Good luck aag, and I hope this helps.
-Ana

There is probably very little for me to add, but I’m a loudmouth, so why not?

I cannot pretend to know what your parents are thinking in their innermost hearts, but it sounds very much as if what they want is control. From what I can tell you are not an adult in their eyes; you are not a separate and mature autonomous person with your own wants, needs and desires. Additionally, I doubt they have concerned themselves with your children’s autonomy.

Grandparents are important in a child’s life, but not if their influence is toxic and certainly not if they are pressing very, hard for visits in which your children have no protection from their (your parents’) wants/needs/desires/problems. I was certainly alone with my grandparents sometimes, or if there was another adult it was an aunt rather than a parent, but my grandparents never molested my mother or father, or anyone else.

What’s crystal clear is that you need to protect your children, not the feelings of two people who clearly cannot respect your boundaries, beliefs, lifestyle or existence as an adult. If your parents cannot accept that, if they think that a counsellor will buy into the idea that their desires > your childrens’ safety, then there is absolutely nothing a counsellor could to do invalidate that belief in their eyes.

(And any therapist who buys into THEIR crap is someone whom I suggest you run far, far, far away from as quickly as your legs will carry you! Don’t look back! Get out of the office and GO, carrying your children under each arm if necessary!)

A pedo is a pedo is a pedo and nothing changes that. If mom was an enabler, unconscious or otherwise, then it would be unwise to leave a child alone with them. It’s just that simple.

Do you want a relationship with your parents? That’s sort of the core issue after making sure your babies are safe.

I’ve been reading (and loving - you are an amazing woman) your writing for a while now, thank you for that. During my reading I’ve heard several references to an event which occurred, I’m assuming between you/your parents/your children that caused you to terminate one-on-one time between your children and their grandparents. As I’ve read these responses, others seems to have a clue as to the story, which would help me see the bigger picture of your relationship with them (aside from them being wacko born-again Christians,trust me, ’nuff said). Did you write a post you could refer me to? I perused the archives, but didn’t find any post titled “Things My Wacko Born-Again Parents Did To Cause Me To Terminate One On One Time Between My Parents and My Children”.

I’m not being flippant, I can only imagine how awful this must be for you. Can you refer me to a post that you’ve written to shed a little light on the situation for me?

If not, I won’t be offended. ‘It’s none of your damned business!’ would be a perfectly acceptable reply. Otherwise, I’ll leave it to my imagination.

I have had a few experiences with Christian pseudo-counselors, which I’ll tell you about and offer some advice later. Right now, I really would like to know what happened.

Didn’t read all the other comments (lord, you do get a lot of comments, Girl), so I have no doubt I’m repeating what others have said.

In order for counselling to be effective, you need to trust the counsellor. One who needs to append a qualifier like ‘Christian’, rather than just putting forth their experience and qualifications, would not inspire trust in me. I would worry that their motivations would not always be what is good for me.

you know the thing that always enrages me is that someone hits me and then hugs me to comfort me after hitting me and expects that to make it all better.

um no, you just hit me… now you have to deal with the fact that i don’t want you around and it is NOT MY JOB to make you feel better for hitting me.

that said, i like the idea of going through the kink aware counsellors list and finding one of those who also happens to be christian. that way when your parents bring up your ‘unnatural’ lifestyle the counsellor will be equipped to deal with it.

or move out of state and have your ex move three streets over.

Much has been said, but i think Kochanie siad it the absolute best:

“Forget about this Christian counselor business. It’s a ploy to weaken the barrier you created to protect your children. Besides, the God the Father could use a remedial course in parenting. It’s not by chance that the ten commandments proclaim, Honor thy mother and thy father, but omit the rule, Love and protect thy children.”

When i went to comment, i was originally going to simply write the following:

“WTF??? Tell them to shove it. And to bite you — and not in a good way. I’m sorry — YOU should have to find THEM a counselor that suits THEM because THEY can’t and won’t admit THEIR own wrongdoing?

You are fucking well shitting me.

Do they not realise how lucky they are to even KNOW their grandchildren? How generous you are in allowing them that privilege?

Huh???”

But I thought Kochanie said it so beautifully that i borrowed her words to add a spot of legitimacy and depth to mine.

Kisses,
Minxy x

First off, when I hear the words “Christian Counselor,” it reminds me of “Christian Rock.” From my experience that frequently means an emphasis on the “Christian,” with the rest secondary. Many people call themselves Christian Counselors with no training whatsoever in counseling, only in Christianity. Some of your readers have had good experiences with Christian counselors, some not. But I feel that’s not the real issue here.

You’re right to trust your instincts. You’ve been standing up to your parents, and now that they cannot fool themselves into believing that you’re hiding behind your ex, they know it’s you setting the boundaries. I don”t know them, but I would wager they think they’re throwing you a bone by asking you to choose a counselor that you can all see together. And then backpedaling by dictating a “Christian” counselor. They probably believe that a Christian counselor will see the rightness of their point of view over yours.

Trust your instincts: They seem excellent. You should not back down one inch on protecting your children first. If your parents insist that they will only see/listen to a Christian counselor, then they’re not ready to listen to ANY counselor, unless that counselor says they’re RIGHT.

I’m a survivor of abuse, and of rigid Christianity. Kudos to you for your strength, for avoiding the mistakes of your parents, and for your good judgment.

Hugs!!

Looking back, this is pretty similar to other responses, but I wrote it before looking at the others. :) Here goes..

In my not-so-humble opinion, a Christian counsellor does not sound like one that is neutral if your parents are Christian but your own beliefs/lifestyle are not likely to be considered “Christian”.

If it were me and I was actually considering this, I would talk to the counsellor on my own long before meeting with your parents and ask him/her to define “Christian counsellor” for you. What does that mean? Their suggestions for resolving the issues with your parents will be “you should pray on it”? Or quoting you scripture in support of what they think you should do?

Finally, I don’t think that it’s appropriate for your parents, in a nutshell, to ask you to play trust games with your children as the objects (possibly) in harm’s way if your parent(s) fail.

Hi AAG

A lot of rubbish is spouted about ‘christian’ forgiveness. It is not an unconditional thing. It was never meant to be.

My understanding is that a prerequisite for forgiveness is REPENTANCE i.e that your parents would need to face up to what they variously did to you or allowed to happen to you.

Without that vital step, forgiveness would be meaningless. In any case it is not a thing that they can demand of you as if it were their right and your forgiving them in no way implies your having to put your own children in harm’s way.

This is nothing other than emotional blackmail on their part.

See above. *hugs*

I didn’t make it through all of the responses but in general I have to agree that you need to find someone that based on their ability to counsel you and your specific situation not someone who can counsel you based on their beliefs.

One point that I didn’t really see made was just because you are no longer with your ex does not mean that the decisions he has been involved in no longer matter. You both decided that there should be no unsupervised visits. I am sure that fact hasn’t changed because he is no longer living under the same roof. Your parents need to understand that they still have to respect the way that you both want the children to be raised.

My husband and I went through therapy and chose a Christian counselor. I really didn’t feel that our therapist put a strong or heavy emphasis on religion or faith. She was a great therapist and really helped us out.

I think that the issue with your and your parents is pretty deep and therapist can’t hurt but if your parents are unwilling or unable to be completely honest about the issues, then its a waste of time.

I am a Christian but I don’t feel that you have to “have” a Christian therapist. As a psych major and someone who plans to go into that occupational world, the role of a good therapist is not to invoke their own beliefs or some type of doctrine into the sessions. Some Christians prefer Christian therapists, especially in the case of marriage counseling because the goal then would be to keep the marriage together.

I’m starting to babble now, but I hope it helps somehow.

your kids = your decision
end of discussion

fixing the relationship could mean that they get to see the children when you are present, as opposed to not at all…they should be fine with that…if not, then tough shit…

just because one finds god, doesnt mean that they are no longer responsible for the actions they did…and doesnt mean they are no longer held accountable for the actions they did…and it also doesnt mean that relationships that were damaged by those actions immediately (or ever) become anyones idea of perfect…

since they want this so bad, they should be the ones to locate a therapist…you should not have to do all of the work in the hopes of changing something that you have already decided (did that make sense?)…

be strong…it is your responsibility to protect your children…sometimes that means saying no and expecting others to be ok with that…such as life…

peace…

Hi agg, I’m a longtime lurker, first time commenter. I can speak from a unique position, I think, in that my mom had Philip Larkin situation from her step-father. Unlike you, who have strong boundaries with your parents, my parents remained intertwined with my grandparents. I grew very close to them, ignorant of the horror that lay beneath.

My grandparents tried a counseling session or two before my grandfather was claimed “cured.” I was a toddler then, I think. My parents had given my grandparents an ultimatum. My parents even tried moving across the country to escape my mother’s ingrown demons, but the pull was too strong and they moved back.

It was years and years and years of thinking everything was fine. My first year of college, my mom started with a new therapist and reopened the wound from Philip Larkin she had disguised through gorging herself with food and being overweight. In essence, she was stuck in the same child-state that first suffered abuse at the hands of another. She started to lose weight, but she was very emotional. I had no idea what was wrong.

That Christmas, everything came out. The abuse. My mom asked that my step-grandfather not comment on her or her daughters bodies, as that was a line he had no right to cross due to the events of the past.

Our family was severed and broken. The close bonds that I had formed with my grandmother, who to this day believes that my grandfather is an upstanding man, are torn. These are completely different people - people who have abandoned their daughter, who consider her to be dead to them - then the loving grandparents I grew up with.

What I mean to say is - please, continue to be strong with your boundaries. Please. It doesn’t do any good for the children to get attached to the lie the grandparents will perpetuate (”that everything is ok”) or for you to implicitly endorse the lie by letting them cross the boundary.

Yes, it may hurt your relationship with your parents. But your kids are what is important now.

57 posts. Wow. I have absolutely nothing to add that hasn’t already been said. Just call me number 58.

Good luck. I think you’re getting some pretty good advice.

I don’t have children, so maybe I am way off base here, but much like some who ask “What would Jesus do?” I wonder what the answer would be if you asked yourself:

“If my kids knew everything — everything I know, everything my parents know, everything they may someday know, including things they wish they’d never learned (assuming for a moment they would also be capable of comprehending all of this knowledge) — what would they want me to do?”

That answer might be the first step in figuring out what to do.

I would suggest finding a liberal christian church, one that would probably not look askance at a sexually active lifestyle. Universalist Unitarians seem to be quite accepting. Quakers are also awesome and nonjudgmental in general! Then ask their minister if she might recommend a christian counselor with an open mind.

Also, if you find a great counselor, are they going to *ask* the person if he/she is christian? Or just assume…

Whoops, neglected to say, I think it may run in your favor to find the counselor yourself. It will allow you to pre-screen any candidates so you don’t get someone who will merely reinforce your parents’ behavior!

My mom asked me to come with her to see her counselor and it ended with the counselor calling me and apologizing. I asked my mom, “Are you sure you want to go there?” and she said yes, so I went ready to be forthcoming about all the reasons that my daughter would not be allowed overnight visits at grandmas. Of course, my mother had not been honest with the counselor about any of the things that happened in my childhood and by the time I finished, my mother was practically in the fetal position and rocking and sobbing. Hey, she asked for it.

BTW, I moved. 700 miles away. Mom and I get a long a lot better now.

dee

I may be echoing what someone else has posted but so what.
Why do you’re parents think they “need” and/or deserve alone time with your children? What is it they can do alone that they cannot do with you as a whole family? The answer is absolutely nothing.
Also why are you taking this burden alone? You share these children with a man who will back you. Even if you decide to go to counseling and that you’re parents are “healed” ( you’re too smart for that) you would still have to pass this by their father who will never agree to such terms.
You’re not the only one saying no to your parents and they don’t seem to get that.
I work with a woman who was a child social worker for years she told me that if I send my child to the MIL’s house who is married to a convicted child molester, I have knowingly sent her to a child molesters house and God forbid something should happen I could easily be held legally responsible for endangering my child.
I post this not only for your strength but mine as well in the comming weeks before the birth of my daughter because I know these battles will be mine soon.
Stay strong and before you ask the ex to step in and make an ugly situation uglier remind your parents you can not make this decision without his permission as welll so maybe the four of you should go to counseling. With any luck that will be enough of a threat to back them off.

First post and I will make it short.

Just say NO

A further thought: You need to ask yourself WHY they need your ‘forgiveness’ after all this time? Do they really want to set a healing process in motion between you and them, or is it simply a means to an end to gain access to your children?

I recommend a good fisting… loves you girl!

I would say no. This isn’t a genuine attempt to reach out and explore past issues with you. It’s a bid to find someone to take their side and pressure you into letting them have unsupervised time with your children.

I would say no. I would also tell them that protecting your children and respecting their father’s wishes are altogether separate issues from your relationship with them as their daughter, and that they need to understand that even if you came to forgive them completely for what happened to you, there would still be no possibility at all of them having unsupervised access to the children.

PS it is not that I think they are setting out to harm their children, it is more that if I were you I would also feel unable to take the risk.

pps “their children” = “your children”. Going away now…

Here’s one way to think about it.

You say, “They want our relationship to be fixed.”

If that is possible, then it means some change in you, or them, or the relationship. A counselor is a facilitator, and inessential to that change. Assuming basic competence, one counselor is as good as another.

But your parents seem very concerned with the choice of counselor. First it had to be theirs and not yours. Now it has to be a “Christian” counselor. Perhaps what they are seeking is not change or healing, but authority for their position. They hope to find that authority in the Christian doctrines of redemption and forgiveness, as misapplied to your situation.

AAG

I tried to email you to ask about the password so that I could read older archives. Yahoo Mail wouldn’t send the message because your address didn’t end in .com. Could you email me the password at {redacted by admin}.

Thanks for sharing your life with us! I can’t wait to dig into your archives!!

Melissa

–The email is aagblog@gmail.com :) –aag

If you go to counseling with them, it should be because you want to do so. They refused when you requested years ago; if you don’t feel like getting into it at this time, you have the right to do the same.

They seem to not realize the point of healthy counseling is more to help them grasp the severity of what they did to you than to get you to blithely drop your healthy boundaries. That disgusts me.

I’m going to have to agree with Hailey and Katy Newton on part of this. Even if you go to counseling and things are worked out, if the children’s father still objects, it is a no go. I’m disappointed that it took 60 posts for that to be brought up.

Find a specialized counselor who happens to be a Christian. Try to work through it for both your own healing as well as your Mother/Father. I have no personal frame of reference with your abuse, but perhaps it would help. Even if the relationship were repaired, I don’t think it is worth any kind of risk to put any more kids in a path of risk.

This sounds to me like it’s yet another attempt to control you. They don’t sound interested in anything other than their own wishes - to get time alone with your kids.

Boundaries with parents are hard, but in this case I see no reason for you to change them. And dumping the “find a counselor” on you is utterly bogus. They want to “heal your relationship” they need to make some real concessions and come to you. That means going to a counselor of your choice. They need to show a little bend, not you.

If you are open to counseling with them, and only if you are then my suggestion would be to offer they can come to your counselor or a counselor she recommends. If they are serious about reconciliation then they should be willing to do whatever makes *YOU* comfortable. That they’re not speaks to their motives.

You can refuse. It will probably infuriate them and cause them to increase their attempts to push your boundaries. It sucks when that happens and you should be prepared for that.

Have they ever explained why it is so important that they be alone with the kids? It strikes me as strange.

I am a devout Christian and have been for over 30 years. However I would not suggest you go to a Christian counselor unless you know them personally very well. Some Christians can tend to be judgmental, self-righteous and condescending, if you don’t fit into their “mold”. I am personally embarrassed by this kind of Christian, who has no love or tolerance for those who do not think like they do, or who “march to the beat of a different drum”. I suggest you go the secular counselor or therapist route, of your choice. The only reason your parents want a Christian counselor is so that they can have another person on their side.

AAG,

I only have a tidbit to add: Guilt is the main currency of fundamentalists trying to get something that they want. Since a reasoned, rational, logical argument cannot be constructed to support their desire/demand (e.g. a former molester asking for visitation rights. wtf?) they instead turn to using an emotional plea–but couch it in the context of “you’ll be a better person for having done this thing for me”, regardless of what you, yourself, sacrifice to assauge their wishes. Somehow, I think Jesus would be unamused. In fact, when it comes to hypocrites, I remember his having a rather, erm, violent reaction.

I’m not saying you should use their faith as a weapon against them. But, if they’re going to use their faith as a weapon against both you *and* your children; then you are under no obligation to give any credence, or respect, either to the conditions of their demands or to their demands.

Yes, I’m advocating your disallowing your parents from having unsupervised visitation rights. More’s the point, I’m encouraging you to not feel guilty about it. I’ve my own experience in separating myself from my very Christian mother. In fact, that work is still in-progress and it’s hard and it’s painful–for both of us. But I know that ultimately, I’ll be a happier, better-adjusted person for having done so. I still love my mother but that does not change the fact that allowing her more then superficial access to my life is emotionally poisonous.

You have all my sympathy. I wish you the best.

Seeing a counselor will not make what happened in the past go away.
If you do visit a counselor with them, I’d vote for a secular counselor.
I fear a Christian counselor would preach at you. A secular counselor is equally qualified to address the issues at hand.

If they really want to make a case for having their grandkids with them, they’ll agree to a secular counselor. If they insist on a christian counselor, that’s a sign to you that it’s less about having the grandkids, and more about your choices and how they feel about them.

I think there are two issues at play here, and possibly your parents are trying to make them one and the same.

First, there’s the issue of forgiveness. They likely want your forgiveness for what was done (or not done) in the past. For them, that likely means a Christian definition of forgiveness.

Second, they want to have time with their grandchildren. Perhaps they believe that by obtaining your forgiveness they will automatically be entitled to you granting their wishes.

However, forgiveness does not in and of itself change any circumstances. Nada. Zippo. Nothing. In fact, forgiveness is really for your benefit and none of their own. Forgiving someone for something they did helps you to heal and move past those feeling of hurt, pain, etc. You can forgive someone for some wrong done to you without impacting that person at all, and in fact, without that person asking (let alone even caring) that you forgive them for some transgression against you.

Let’s say my neighbor is a mean drunk. One day I knock on his door to ask to borrow his lawn mower. He becomes irate and punches me. If I was a devout Christian that believed in certain doctrines or principles, I may choose to forgive him rather then press charges or carry the weight of anger and such. However, that doesn’t change the fact that I certainly won’t be knocking on his door to borrow anything ever again. Lesson learned.

He may someday clean up his act and profess to have changed. That may or may not be true, but because of this past circumstance, I may choose to simply keep my distance nonetheless.

Forgiving does not equate to forgetting.

No. They can never be alone with your children. As pleasant as it might be for grandparents to have their grandchildren to themselves, this is not an appropriate instance of that. There seems to a good chance it will be very unpleasant.

It will be plenty pleasant enough for your parents to be with them with you there. The only thing you could possibly wreck is exactly what you fear.

You can’t cure them. I question whether anyone can cure them at this point in their lives with something this deep-seated. If they weren’t straight with that earlier therapist there’s even less likelihood of miracles ahead.

They don’t need miracles. They can be with their grandchildren and you. There’s nothing wrong with that unless they’ve got a who knows how hidden agenda.

It sounds like attempts at therapy will just be attempts at manipulating you. You’re not going to fix them. It’s not your job to help fix them. If I were you I would respectfully decline and re-emphasize your willingness for them to see the kids with you there.

Our kids have no problem leaving their kids with us. We babysit. We have them overnight. We take them on “field trips.” But we love being with our kids and our kids love being with their kids. We must spend something like 98 or 99% of our time with both grandchildren and their parents. If it were 100% we wouldn’t object much, if at all.

I’ll be blunt. What keeps haunting me in this, from this distance, is like, “Why the insistance at great cost? What’s up with that? What’s the real problem here? What are your parents up to? What do they really want — consciously or unconsciously?”

If your parents really want to spend time with their grandchildren, they’d better get to it. Life is short and, once adolescence arrives, the grandkids are going to be in short supply. They’ll be busy with their own lives. Even with the best possible outcome I doubt your parents will get through enough therapy to make a difference before the kids are all grown up.

And in the end, obviously, you want to do all you can to keep your children from needing therapy for anything that happened between them and their grandparents. It’s basic parenting.

Multiple-person counselling only works when all parties are willing to be open, honest, receptive and accountable. Even if you were to find a (neutral) counsellor, your parents would have to be willing to listen to some pretty harsh truths–and it doesn’t seem to me like they are. They probably figure this is the one way you’ll give in and let them have your children unsupervised, because, well, who’s going to deny that children need their grandparents?

I believe a good and loving relationship wit