aag

Probably is never good enough when it comes to our kids. Never ever.

I don’t know what your parents did that you counselor was responding to. However, I do know that if it was bad enough for you to refuse to allow your parents to watch your kids for 7 years, it must have been pretty bad. I am sorry, you cannot trust them. And you have to accept that. No matter how much they say they changed, no matter how much pressure they put on you, you cannot trust them.

I say this from the perspective of having self-absorbed parents who allowed me to fend for myself from age 5. I thought they changed. And when they offered to watch my newly born daughter while I ran to the store, I figured, I would be gone for an hour, how bad could it be.

After I left, my daughter got hungry. My mother pulled the shade down over her car seat she was in and ignored her. My sister in law luckily came over, saw the crying baby and took care of her (then relayed the story to me).

People unfortunately don’t change. You cannot trust they did. And frankly, hiding behind God is pretty convenient.

God forgives them? How the fuck would they know that. Did god come down and tell them? Oh, because they prayed all of a sudden all sins absolved. Ted Bundy found God. Did God forgive him too?

IMVHO

I’ve been a lurker for various reasons for a few months now. That being said, this is the first article that really made me sit back and say “whoa!”.

That took a lot of guts - the difficult history and question you have put forth to mostly nameless strangers, asking for an answer or a confirmation. I admire you for that.

In the end, they are YOUR children. Nothing is more important. Not you, not your parents, not anyone else.

Do what you know is the best for them, for better or for worse. In the end, you already know what the answer is.

I truly look forward to reading your posts - thank you for sharing!

Good for you. I just have to shake my head when I hear them try to convince you that forgiveness for past behavior somehow has *any*thing to do with future behavior.

And future regrets? Can you imagine the level of your regret if you trusted them and they did to your daughter what they did to you? Why on earth would you regret protecting her? The mind boggles.

They decided to forgive themselves, using God as the proxy. Your kids should never have to decide whether to forgive them.

If there’s a risk, you can take it, but you can’t take it on behalf of your kids.

I agree with Rupert’s opinion, and I add my own. There will be “recovered” perpetrators when there are “recovered” alcoholics. In other words, they are never “recovered”, only “recovering”. If a drunk falls off the wagon he/she is most likely only going to hurt themselves, but for a molester, falling off the wagon automatically involves a child; in this case, YOUR child. Don’t leave that door open, even for a moment, unless you are willing to answer your child when they ask “why did you leave them alone with me after what happened to you?” Just my .02

My father did not abuse me. A family friend did. And my mother did not protect me (for all sorts of reasons that I have forgiven her for), but that did not negate the fact that she was a neglectful mother. I took a “chance” and let her watch my 2-yr-old, making her promise not to leave the baby alone when she to wanted to smoke. Not only did my mother go out on the porch to smoke and leave my daughter inside the house alone when the kid slammed and locked the door on her, but she laughingly told me about it later. “How clever that little girl is. Isn’t she cute?” I guess that “clever, cute” little girl let her grandmother back in the house. I’m not sure I would have. I never let Grandma babysit alone again. The temptation to be narcissistic was just too great!

Go with your gut.

when it comes to the safety of our children probably just doesn’t cut it! it doesn’t matter what they may say you have to do what you know is right in your heart… and if they don’t like it that’s just too bad for them. and their God may have forgiven but in everything i’ve ever read God never forgets.

Please, do not let them be alone with your babies ever, not for even an hour. Dave is right on. I KNOW about this. I am so, so sorry. Molesters and their enablers do not just stop. Its more about opportunity. So sorry.

Sounds like you’ve got a good doctor, and thank fuck for that. See also: having the courage not to be emotionally bullied by your parents. Good lookin’ out, aag.

Probably is never good enough when it comes to little ones. Never.

Given the awful past you share with your parents, along with the horrific judgment they are placing on you for your present I wouldn’t leave my kids along with them for 5 minutes, let alone 5 hours. Who knows what could be said, done, not done, or not said. It’s not worth the chance.

It comes back to your beautiful post yesterday about testing boundaries. This is what they are doing and you have to keep reinforcing those boundaries until they are ultimately respected. If they cannot afford you that simple respect, they do not deserve any amount of trust.

I’m sending you a hug and some support from my neck of the internet. Stay strong, AAG. Even though we are just name and faceless strangers of the internet, we care and support you.

It’s a big arrogant - smug even - of them to assume that God has forgiven them their sins.

They will only really know on their day of reckoning.

You’re the mummy - you call the shots.

They’re lucky they see you, on your own or otherwise, let alone your tiny people. Don’t give an inch.

You already know the answer.

And yet i know why you wrote the post — i mean, they’re the children’s GRANDPARENTS! Shouldn’t that be an automatic trust thing? Wouldn’t it be so much EASIER to leave your children with their kin rather than one paid to watch them?

Yes, it would. But in addition to being their grandparents, they are also your parents — and here i segue into what your doctor said. And also Katy, commenting above me. They are lucky — incredibly so, and should count their blessing and shut the fuck up.

How do they know God has forgiven them? Rather presumptious… and even because God potentially might have done, there is no reason why you should unless you feel that way. In any case, forgiveness is a gift given by the transgressed, not a right demanded by the transgressor.

Would I leave my kids with someone I felt might abuse them. No. Should you - your choice, but most people would err on the side of caution.

After all, should things go bad, your parents will be long dead while the effects of their actiuons will be still agonising for the living.

Their arguments would not sway me either.

A difficult position, but one that you will stand, i am sure.

Z hit the nail on the head, and brilliantly if you ask me.

“They decided to forgive themselves, using God as the proxy.”

Like many others here, I know not the backstory. However, the protection and safety of innocent lives unable to defend themselves under your care is truly a sacred trust and one that you are wise enough to not be abrogating.

If your gut says “no alone time,” you should run with it. You _need_ no further explaination. If they don’t like it, tough.

Your gut instinct on this, as on most things, is spot on. Personally, you’re already more lenient with them than I’d have been. They should be thankful you speak to them at all, much less let them take care of the kids.

It’s tough and behavior like theirs only makes it tougher. You have my sympathies. I’ve not been there and done this specific thing, but I have just about encountered every other familial problem.

I’m there with you in spirit kid. Keep up the fine work.

There’s a distinct difference between forgiveness and conceding to whatever behavior they want you to perform. You can forgive them and still not allow them to be alone with the children. These are two different things.

I might forgive a thief for stealing my wallet. That doesn’t mean because I forgive him that I have to invite him into my home, or that only HE gets to choose how I relate to him, and how much access he has to me.

The fact your parents so clearly can’t respect your own boundaries here on this issue makes me think they’re still not solid on boundaries in any other issue. I think you’re being wise in setting your own, well-thought-out boundaries.

You are letting them see the kids. They ought to be grateful they’re getting that privilege at all, given their past behaviors.

What they all said. And, they lost the right to demand you trust them 30 years ago.

I am sorry I can’t agree with this statement “Probably is never good enough when it comes to little ones. Never.”

This is an issue of risk there is a probability of my son being injured crossing the road (small) but that is balanced with a probability of poor development by being kept in (large). Probably is often all we have.

In the case in point though. The possibility of abuse is compounded by the clear self delusion of the perpetrators either would in my opinion be grounds for restricted access.

It occurs to me that this discussion would be interesting to those who have stuck their head through the fence.

Rupert and Damian are spot on. Keep doing exactly what you’ve been doing for the past seven years. You’ll NEVER regret it.

They delude themselves into beleiving that God has forgiven them, because its the only way they can face each day.
No risk, no prbabilty is worth it. Keep the kids away from unsupervised visits.

Until your kids are old enough to decide for themselves whether or not they want to spend time with grandma and grandpa it’s UP TO YOU to make that decision. If your answer is “No” then everyone’s going to have to accept that. If they truly want forgiveness they’ll understand and live with your decision. The fact that they’re fighting you on this raises a HUGE red flag IMO.
Hugs.

I don’t think I knew until this minute that it was your father that abused you. And now I am sitting here thinking that those people have one hell of a nerve judging what YOU do in your personal life. I don’t care if they think they’ve found Jesus or whatever, that’s bullshit.

I wouldn’t leave a recovering drug addict home alone with drugs, and I wouldn’t leave my child home alone with a molester and some his accomplice.

Okay. You know me, AAG, and you know I’m paranoid. That said, I worry that your parents may use your website here as a means to try to take custody of your children. You know it happens. They may do it with the rationale that it is the best thing for the children. They may say that God told them to do it. They may convince themselves that you are an unfit mother and they need to “save” the children.

Maybe I’m just wacky and wrong, but irrespective of this, my advice is to never, ever, ever leave your children alone with your parents. Religious mania and pedophilia (and the enabling of pedophilia), do not good babysitters make.

***

You know another thing that just occurred to me as I was ready to hit submit? I used to seriously envy you, having supportive parents. Parents that seemed to help you both financially and emotionally. I was all like jealous, thinking I wished I had parents like AAG.

Let me state that I’m cured of that.

xooxoxo

Hi AAG,

Pedophilia is a lifetime affliction, and cannot be cured, at least not without major chemicals.

The fact that they are trying to shame you into letting it happen is even more proof that nothing has changed.

Re: Love and Forgiveness. Watching kids is a physical act. You can love someone, but that still doesn’t add anything to their native capability.

This one’s a no-brainer.

XOXO

Chuck

Circe stated:

I worry that your parents may use your website here as a means to try to take custody of your children.

I disagree, for two reasons.

First, aag’s ex-husband would have to relinquish his right to custody of his children before her parents could wrangle control through the courts.

Second, aag’s parents would have to prove that the children are endangered by aag’s actions. In this weblog she has explained, quite clearly, that her children are not present when she meets with her lover. In most instances she is at another location during her trysts while her children are in the care of their father or a trusted babysitter. The burden of proof for any alleged harm to the children would rest with the parents.

As far as I can see the only “danger” her children may encounter would result from their penchant for toilet-sipping. I do not even want to imagine how the grandparents would attempt to remedy that fault.

I would absolutely say no to that. As your therapist said, your mom didn’t protect you. It’s up to you to protect your children.

The others have stated the case very well.

Rox and Miss Syl make excellent points about boundaries.

Your parents did not respect your boundaries on your blog. They do not respect your other boundaries.

I do not let my daughter be alone with her mother’s abusing uncle even though the last known moment of abuse was almost 25 years ago. But we don’t know. No one knows if he’s been abusing anyone. He abused 3 of his nieces. While his sister - my ex’s mother - and his brother-in-law were sleeping in the same house - one room away.

I know how hard it is - you need childcare resources - and a free/no cost resource is not to be scorned. However, I finally drew the line with my ex at one point and even refused to allow my daughter to go to her grandmother’s house unless my ex or I were present (the abuser lives across the street and visits constantly). The pattern of denial is so strong that I know that if something happened they would try to cover it up.

How do you know that your father has found God? Plenty of prison inmates find god in their first few years in prison on their way to a parole board. How do you know that finding God and religion isn’t a way of avoiding hard truths for your mother, and a way of getting a “Get Out Of Jail Free” card for your father?

How would your mother survive psychologically if your father re-abused? She wouldn’t - it would shake her life - her faith - everything.

She has lived in denial and has enabled before.

You know you would be selling your daughter’s safety and your own piece of mind for the convenience of a no-cost babysitter.

I did that.

It’s not worth it.

I let my daughter go to her grandmother’s place when she was little - grandmother was free daycare. And then her uncle started talking too much interest in my daughter - my daughter was about 5 or 6. He was always asking daughter about her day. That was the same kind of age as when he started with my ex and her sisters.

I imposed the rule that one of us had to be there - or that there would be no grandma days if uncle wasn’t working.

Then one day I found out that grandma - who knew that uncle had abused 3 of her daughters - had sent my daughter (who was about 8) over to play with uncle molester’s 3 year old daughter by his second wife… uncle molester got off work early that day because the plant shut down because of a break-down. The second wife was over visiting grandma - uncle molester was supervising alone.

That ended any daughter at grandma times without one of us there.

The urge for denial is too strong in the enabler - the guilt is so strong they have to prove to themselves that they were right to trust the perpetrator. They will give the perpetrator the opportunity to molest in order to prove to themselves that the perpetrator is now trustworthy - and that the abuse is in the past.

As others have said - you can’t trust molesters/abusers or their enablers.

Even their intervention in your life probably has more to do with their own need to feel that they are not bad people - by being the “good” ones they are absolving themselves of the blame for what happened to you - they are convincing themselves that what you are doing is worse than what they did. By “saving” you they will cleanse their own sins.

Your father gets the opportunity to scrape the shit off himself for the first time in years and put it on you. “See! She’s not so innocent.” He’ll say.

Who knows what bullshit he may spew along the way to justify his own abuse - will he accuse you in some way - open or subtle - of being “sexually precocious” or “sexually aggressive” as a child? like many other abusers have done?

—-

Sorry to be longwinded, but I wanted to reflect your fear back to you. To let you know that you are justified in that fear. That others have fear like yours.

That other people made wrong decisions - and that maybe some of the guilt that I feel for exposing my daughter to danger can be assuaged by telling you my story.

The others have framed and reframed and reflected your concerns very well, so I will be brief today.

You only get ONE chance to do what it takes to see that those things do not happen to your children. It is like cracking open an egg. Once it is done, it cannot be undone.

You are doing the right thing, no matter how difficult it is.

So they say God has forgiven them. Well good for them. Great. But God is God and why are they putting the burden on your shoulders of being Godlike by putting him on his level.

To answer the rest of their argument, I have this to say.

God forgives, yes. If Adam and Eve asked for forgiveness and obtained it, do you think he would be stupid enough, knowing of their weaknesses, to put them back in the garden? Do you think he would just open up his doors and say, “Have at it, feel free to make the same mistake!!!”

I cannot speak for God and his actions. I don’t think so. God isn’t stupid and neither are you. You can forgive someone for their actions, but that doesn’t mean you have to open yourself up for a repeat. YOU ARE ENTITLED TO PROTECT YOURSELF!! FORGIVENESS DOES NOT ENTER INTO THE EQUATION!!

And just to add one more thing, forgiveness goes both ways. They are not being forgiving for your resistance to them, hence they are hypocrits!

I just wanted you to know that you have another supporter. Everyone else has already said what was needed.

I do not trust my in-laws either and they are not allowed to watch my daughter unsupervised. This is not due to any abuse per say. It is mainly because they do not respect us and the way we are raising our child. (Vegetarian, treating her as an actual person, respecting her rights). It makes it hard some times, but the rewaard of having a confident and well adjusted child make the effort worth it.

You’re right, never. You won’t regret it, today, tomorrow or ever. They don’t respect the boundaries you already attempted to set.

What ever your dad did, he did it. All he had to do to not hurt you was to NOT do anything, and he couldn’t even do that.

He just had to leave you alone and he couldn’t do it. No, don’t trust them, they had 18 years to gain your trust and they obviously couldn’t do it.

That sounds a bit convoulted but my point is he just had to not be nasty. He could have just ogne and watch TV or something instead of what ever it was he did to you but he didn’t do it.

BTW: if you ever confront him he will not remember it or deny it. So don’t waste your time.

I cut my biological father out of my life when I was 17. My siblings did not. I do not allow contact between that man and my children. My siblings do, between him and theirs. Some terrible things have happened to my nieces. My children are whole and well and safe.

For me, and for my kids, it could never be worth the risk.

I reckon the following cliche sums it all up…better safe than sorry. And with that I’m off to cook chicken marsala and steamed carrots for dinner.

Your fears are totally justified. I’d go so far as to make sure you have a directive in place that should anything ever happen to you or your ex that they not be left the children under any circumstances. Appoint alternate guardians if you can. You’ll sleep better at night.

Everybody (and I read them all) made excellent points. I just want to add another stick to the fire.

I don’t know your parents, all I know about them is what I read in here, but what I’ve read is that you can’t trust them. They weren’t trustworthy with you when you were a child, they aren’t trustworthy now.

Going specifically against your wishes to not seek out this blog was a huge slap in the face (for you). They don’t listen. I’ve always believed that listening is a sign of love.

And you know who every killer finds and claims has forgiven them before the final verdict is set? God. God didn’t make people to hurt other people, they used the unGodly part of them to do that. Hiding under a ‘God’ umbrella is just sick and pathedic. God is here for strength and guidance, not excuses.

I am in a similar situation with my mother and stepfather….my mother won’t understand (or chooses not to) why I won’t leave (and never have had left) my now six year old daughter alone with them.

I have always gone with my gut instinct and protected my child, an earlier commentor raised an incredibly valid point that so much of this with molestors etc is about opportunity.

Maybe it is our job as parent’s to not present that opportunity to them.

My psychologist said to me the other day that the past is the best indication of the future.

Also, I am in total admiration of you to allow comments on this post when the subject matter is so emotional.

Good luck with everything.

good for you. protect your kids. abusers can change, but only very rarely. I know from personal experience.

Just: Don’t.

Good for god that he has forgiven them thier sins. And really you could forgive them too if it was in your heart. But just because you forgive them what they did to you doesn’t mean you can forget.

Oh god, reading this post was like looking into my own future. My dad was abusive, horribly so, and I cut him out of my life. I cut my mom out too. I spent my teenage years trying to protect my sisters from him, but I could not. Now I’m spending every waking moment trying to help my sister through the pain and damage of her past. Protect your children any way you know how - you know what’s best in your heart.

I agree with rupert.

“Probably is never good enough when it comes to our kids. Never ever.”

No. No. No.

What is most excruciating about this is that anyone who has been so utterly VILE can dare to make one single solitary peep of complaint.

A single look, the smallest opening of the mouth, the merest hint that anything but the most abject, complete humility and remorse was forthcoming from the mouths of such as them would result in permanent and perpetual shunning. If it were me. Just saying.

Sometimes forgiveness is not a virtue.

Hi,
I’m new here, and I’m really enjoying myself!

The answer to your question is “no”.

Things to consider:

When you forgive someone, you do it for your benefit, not theirs. You do it so that you can heal and move on, instead of being consumed by anger and hatred.

Forgiving someone changes you. It doesn’t change them, it doesn’t change what happened, it doesn’t absolve them of responsibility for what happened, and it doesn’t change the risk that it will happen again.

If your parents truly believed that they had wronged you, and accepted responsibility for that, then they would understand why you won’t leave your children alone with them. If they truly wanted to make amends, then they would respect your boundaries and not badger you about this.

Grandparents naturally want to see their grandchildren, but there is no magic that attaches specially to being left alone with them. The fact that they keep insisting on the one thing that you can’t permit them shows that they still don’t respect your boundaries, and is good reason to believe that they won’t respect your children’s boundaries, either.

The way your parents confuse issues of sin, forgiveness, punishment, trust and responsibility is quite pernicious. Bonus points for the we’ll-be-dead-soon guilt trip.

Take care.

If they had such a great connection with God, then God would help them understand you, and understand why you are hesitant. They would accept your decision, and stop hassling you. They would commit it to prayer that you would change your mind, and accept it if you don’t. That’s the kind of understanding God can give people who truly know and love Him.

Once shame on you, twice shame on me.

My son will never spend a minute alone with my father who was my abuser for many years.

He may only spend time with my mother when she is with another family member whom i trust to the far reaches of the heavens… and by time I mean a walk to the end of the road and back.

We may never forgive and never forget, and because of that it’s our job as parents to make damn sure our kids never have to be put in that situation… and you’re right, probably just doesn’t cut it.

Be safe and be well aag, and know your decision is the right one.

My mother didn’t protect me, and is still in denial about what happened. I am abused when I was pre-verbal. Some may wonder how I know it happened (other than the psychological symptoms) since I don’t know who did it or what actually happened. I didn’t even know I had a scar, I just new that sex hurt and I didn’t know why. A GYN suggested that he loosen up the perineum via surgery, I agreed.

He found I had a deeply embedded scar in my perineum that had been hiding from me. My mother surely would have noticed the blood in my diapers, right?

Go with your gut, it never lets you down and is very accurate.

BTW–no one in my family ever ‘fessed up. I leaned towards it being my dad because of some inappropriate behavior later in life that happened. Last Friday, on my 44 b-day my brother made a comment that made me think it may have been him.

You know which family members not to trust. They do not deserve your trust, or the joy of seeing your children while alone.

I don’t know who to trust. Do I just cut off the entire family? My children are adults now and don’t care for my family. Neither do I.

Do I just cut them all out of my life? This I ponder.

I had forgotten about this aspect of your past. It makes your parents’ lack of boundaries concerning your blog and their self-rightousness all the more sickening to me.

Forgiveness is one thing. Trust is another. It is wonderful if you have forgiven them. It would be foolish to trust them.

I’m constantly amazed at people…

For some reason, I didn’t quite get that the reason you felt unsafe was from abuse in your family of origin.

And it’s THESE people who judge your blog?

And then justify their need to require you, the person who was “wronged” to be “bigger” and take care of them, yet, again?

People who have truly changed do not require anything from those they have wronged..they live with their decisions and do everything they can to show the person they abandoned that they are heard, understood, and honored..that IF and when the wronged against is ready, they will be included again. They wait to show the person they ar trustworthy..and that only happens with time and rebuilt trust…which happens at the healer’s pace, not the abandoners.

To me, their pushing is just another sign that you are right in listening to your gut. They don’t get it and they don’t deserve being trusted. They have to find their own forgiveness not put it on god or try to extract it from you. Their “requirements” for your forgiveness show they continue to care about themselves more than you.

Good luck in this one, AAG. You sound balances and on track.

You can forgive them and still not trust them. In fact, that kind of sounds like the best idea. Your kids are kids, and you sure can’t depend on the kids to 1. know that something is going wrong, 2. stand up for themselves, or 3. tell you about anything that went wrong. And that goes times a bajillion when it’s family and it doesn’t yet register with the kids (thankfully) that family can hurt them the most.

Good luck.

Although I’m in no way religious the answer I would give would be to tell them that if God can forgive them their sins then he/she/it will be able to forgive you for not being able to forgive them.

AAG - the past shows the future. Seriously.

Even now they live in denial and claim they only need god’s forgiveness…they will find a way to deny any responsibility when they betray you.

the earth is littered with broken promises

i never trust anyone who says trust me…

is that too simplistic? it’s nonetheless true.

Bad Influence Girl, I’ve been pondering that very sentiment over the past few years. The people I trust the most in the world have never told me to trust them and vice versa. Very, very sneaky.

I had a similar experience, and I let my child with her once, just because an emergency. She lie to me cause she let him go to my house without my permission, just when I leave. When I call, she says: “Easy, please: I´m watching them”…I return home in fifteen minutes and practically through away those two people, and today, they don´t know my address.
But I still talk sometimes with her…I decide at the last days, press charges and never talk to them again. And God…the worse excuse to make you feel guilty: sorry, if god is at their side, i don´y want him either.

Thank you all for this amazing post! I am pregnant with my first child, the MIL is married to a convicted child molester ( this was before she knew him). I simply requested some of her time in explaining to me how she planned to protect my child from this man, she ran out of the room in tears, and we haven’t spoke in months. I was told I was tearing this “family” apart, “he did his time, he hasn’t molested anyone since.”
I’m the bad guy.
Thank you all for the encouragement to continue to be “the bad guy” and tear this “family” apart if it spares my child. This post has been more meaningfull to me than you’ll know.
Good luck to you AAG.